Chances are, you’re using “woke” incorrectly. Whether you mean it as a compliment or as an insult, it’s now a word so twisted from it’s original meaning… Allie and Michelle recommend dropping it altogether. 

Episode Transcript

Allie Nimmons:
Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, hosted by Michelle Frechette and Allie Nimmons. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database, built with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech overall.

Michelle Frechette:
Hi, Allie.

Allie Nimmons:
Hi, Michelle. How are you?

Michelle Frechette:
Other than a little sleepy, and I think that’s really just the weather, but I’m good. How are you?

Allie Nimmons:
Good. I’m sleepy too. We were both yawning before we hit record.

Michelle Frechette:
I know.

Allie Nimmons:
I feel another one coming.

Michelle Frechette:
I know, it’s like-

Allie Nimmons:
Eek its way out.

Michelle Frechette:
Me too, me too. And it’s probably because we’re seeing each other on the screen. I know that we don’t publish the video of this, but if I see you mute yourself and yawn, I’m going to stifle a yawn or have to try to stifle a yawn, too.

Allie Nimmons:
Which is then the same, so it just turns into this back and forth cycle of us going, “Aah.”

Michelle Frechette:
Exactly. Maybe it’s a good thing we don’t publish the video on these things.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, probably.

Michelle Frechette:
So funny. So funny.

Allie Nimmons:
But yeah, today I wanted to chat with you a little bit about a particular word that has been top of mind recently. Oh, actually, before we start talking about that, I want to plug our newsletter.

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah.

Allie Nimmons:
We started a actual, genuine newsletter, a monthly newsletter, coming out every month.

Michelle Frechette:
An honest to goodness newsletter.

Allie Nimmons:
I know. Which has been in the works. It’s been a plan of ours to do this for months, on months, on months. And it’s just been getting all the pieces together, unifying our vision to make it what we want, and we finally got everything sorted the way we wanted it. Because I didn’t want to just start emailing people unless we knew that it was going to be what we wanted and that it was going to be useful.

Michelle Frechette:
That’s sustainable, yeah.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. So, I just actually sent out the first one. The one for October went out this morning.

Michelle Frechette:
Loved it.

Allie Nimmons:
So, if you are in the database already, you should get that email from the newsletter. And if you don’t want the newsletter, you’re more than welcome to opt out, unsubscribe from the newsletter. You’ll still be in the database, don’t worry. And if you’re not in the database and you’d like to get info from us, you can go to the site and go to underrepresentedintech.com/newsletter. Let me qualify that, make sure that I’m not lying. Yeah, underrepresentedintech.com/newsletter. We just ask for your name and your email.
We give you tons of links of things that we think that underrepresented people and allies would find interesting. The latest episode from this podcast, lots of curated links and resources and articles. And then a little editorial piece at the end. It’ll be a spicy hot take from one of us. We’ll alternate each month. So this month it was my spicy hot take. And so, the spicy hot take actually does inform what I wanted to talk about today because it’s been something that’s been on my mind, and it’s the word woke, W-O-K-E. And I tend-

Michelle Frechette:
Which is kind of funny, considering we’re both yawning. It’s [inaudible 00:03:14].

Allie Nimmons:
We’re both sleepy.

Michelle Frechette:
But it’s not that kind of woke.

Allie Nimmons:
No, no, no, no, no. The word woke has had such a journey through, particularly when it comes to Black American history. The earliest… So it is a African American vernacular English word. It is classified as such, which is really interesting and validating to me ’cause I feel like sometimes it’s like, “Oh, well that’s something that black people made up,” or, “That’s something that black people say,” and it’s like, yes, if it’s a part of A V E, that is true. My research shows that the phrase “stay woke” was used as early as the 1930s. It’s not a new thing. It’s almost a 100 year old phrase. And it has always referred to an awareness of the social and political issues affecting African Americans. That was its definition for decades.
It’s been used by Erykah Badu in a song, people attribute part of its popularity to a Martin Luther King speech in which he instructs people to remain awake to certain things. He doesn’t say woke because that wasn’t really his vibe. But it’s basically the same thing. It’s been used for a super long time. And I would say, starting in about 2016, when a lot of stuff started changing in this country, it started to change as a use. And now, so you might be thinking, “Why is Allie going on and on about Black American history on this podcast? This isn’t a history podcast.”
In our conversations in tech and in business about all of these issues, about diversity, it’s important that we understand how to talk to each other and that we talk to each other with respect and that we see the whole issue, not just the one things, the singular things that affect us as individuals. So I wanted to talk to you about “woke” in an effort to help particularly, allies, understand why this is such a sensitive word to people right now. Michelle, ’cause I don’t want this to be Allie time. What is your impression, or what does that word mean to you, prior to me saying all of this stuff now, what was that word’s history in your mind, in your life?

Michelle Frechette:
Well, so for me, I think of words that belong to certain categories. A category of people is probably not the right word, but communities of people, and how we take backwards. So, women have taken back, I’m not going to say all of the words. I know I could, but okay. So women have taken back the C word. So, when I was growing up, the C word was that word, that was the absolute worst swear word you could possibly say. And by women taking back that word and making it so that, “Yeah, we can say that word now.” That doesn’t mean that men can say that word to us or call us those things, but we can empower within that word. So I was thinking about that a lot when we were talking, when you suggested this is a topic, and I was thinking about how politics does this with words too.
So “woke” has definitely entered politics, we know that. And do you remember the deplorables? The right wing conservatives are like, “Oh, okay, fine. I’m a deplorable then. We’re going to reclaim the word deplorable.” And that kind of stuff. And how even reclaiming words can be problematic when you do it with ill intention. And so, I got to think about what did the word “woke” mean to me? And I have always seen it as eyes open, aware and embracing of people. So I think it kind of overtook the word politically correct in a way. So politically correct, when it first came on as a phrase, was a positive thing. To be politically correct meant that you weren’t using the N word and the R word and slurs, racial slurs and medical slurs and any kind of slur against people, and if somebody accepting or tolerant of the LGBTQ community. Because we use words like tolerant, right?
Who wants to be tolerated? I don’t want to be tolerated. I want to be embraced for who I am. So, we’ve moved past all of… Well, some of us have moved past on those kinds of things. I know that not everybody has, of course. And so, I see “woke” overtook political correctness. So, political correctness became that thing like, “Oh, you’re just doing it to be politically correct, not to accept and embrace people.

Allie Nimmons:
For the sake of it.

Michelle Frechette:
Right. And so, the word “woke” to me was, “Well, I’m not just doing it to be politically correct and to say, and not offend, but to actually embrace and be aware of and accepting. Not tolerant, but accepting and embracing cultural differences and community differences and those kinds of things. Have I ever walked around saying I’m woke? No, I haven’t. That’s not a word that I would use. It’s not in my vernacular to use that word. I use words like, accepting and embracing and applauding and uplifting of other people and that’s what I try to do in my life. But to hear the word woke be used in a negative way now as though being embracing, accepting, politically correct, aware, uplifting is a bad thing. It just boggles my mind. To hear a right wing person to say, “You’re so woke.” I’m like-

Allie Nimmons:
Thank you.

Michelle Frechette:
Thank you. I mean, yeah, right?

Allie Nimmons:
You should be too.

Michelle Frechette:
Awesome. I’m so glad you said that because I do try to think of myself in those ways. Do I apply that term to myself? No. But do I apply what that term means to myself? Absolutely. And thank you very much for noticing.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah.

Michelle Frechette:
“Well, I didn’t mean it in a good way.” Well, you should because you’re an idiot.

Allie Nimmons:
And that’s always what it has meant. And we talked on this podcast before about the evolution of language. Language changes, the meanings of words are never set in stone. Our society changes them. I love that. Right?

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah.

Allie Nimmons:
I’m not saying like, “Oh, well, it should go back to what it meant.” Things evolve and change. So in the thirties, basically the idea was that black people had been mentally put to sleep by the subjugation, the discrimination, the mental slavery, is what they called it. Marcus Garvey called it mental slavery. And so it was an idea for black people to stay awake, keep their eyes open, free themselves from that mental slavery.

Michelle Frechette:
Vigilant.

Allie Nimmons:
So as a white person or as an ally, you couldn’t be woke because you had never been put to sleep. That was the thought process. And then it grew into a wider belief of we should all be aware, we should all be awake, we should all be looking out, blah, blah, blah. And it applied to everyone.
And what I also find interesting about all of this is, it did start as a black thing, but now it’s like if you care about any social justice issue, the word “woke” can be applied. So when Disney, I said this in the newsletter, when Disney decided to have a black little mermaid, everyone’s like, “Oh, Disney is becoming so woke and blah, blah, blah, blah.” Actually, well, that’s not a good example of the point I’m trying to get to. They said the same thing when there was a gay character in a Disney movie, “Disney’s becoming so woke.” And I was like, well, to be fair, woke never had anything to do with gay people. But it’s this desire to devalue and dismiss and discredit these efforts to change things for the better, because it’s not what somebody else agrees with. So you’re then taking the good word and smearing it and making it sound ugly and making it sound stupid.
And so, my feeling about the whole thing right now is, because it has been taken and smeared and made to be ugly and made to be an insult, that’s where it’s gone, and that’s what it’s become. And we can’t sit here and say, “Well, you shouldn’t say words and you shouldn’t call yourself…” People can use whatever they want. I recommend, if you are an ally out there, to try to think of other words to describe yourself other than “woke”. I love your thought process, Michelle, of like, “Yeah, I identify with all of the thoughts behind this, but I might not call myself that.” Whether it’s not in your vernacular, whether it’s because of the new meaning, essentially, the new connotation, I think is a better way to say that. The connotation now, is very negative, regardless of what it means. And so somebody recently asked me, “If not woke, then what else can I use to describe myself?” Accepting, supportive, compassionate? There’s so many other words that you can use to describe yourself other than woke.

Michelle Frechette:
I completely agree with you.

Allie Nimmons:
And what’s funny to me is woke didn’t enter the English dictionary until 2017.

Michelle Frechette:
Really?

Allie Nimmons:
It had been used since 1930 by black Americans, by high profile black Americans. Marcus Garvey, one of the most famous black figures in our history, was not entered into the dictionary until the extreme right in this country decided to take it and use it for something bad. And then we decided to add it to the dictionary.

Michelle Frechette:
I mean, I can’t really be surprised considering, it was into the 1970s and eighties when doctors finally admitted that black people actually had nerve endings and felt pain.

Allie Nimmons:
Yikes.

Michelle Frechette:
I mean, it’s ridiculous, right?

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. It’s wild. It’s so wild.

Michelle Frechette:
Geez. Yeah. So, let’s retire that word. Let the community who owns that word, use that word the way that they intend and everybody else to stop. We had that podcast a few weeks back where we talked about retiring phrases that are, even if you didn’t know that they had racial origins to them, it’s time to stop using them. And I won’t say who it was. We included in that, the phrase mumbo jumbo. And the very next day a newsletter came out that’s like all the mumbo jumbo, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, “Oh.” I know they haven’t heard it yet because it just came out. But oh, the timing on that.

Allie Nimmons:
The timing is funny.

Michelle Frechette:
And I’m sure that they did not have any idea that that phrase had racial origins to it and negative racial origins to it. And so hopefully, they might be more aware now. But yeah, it’s time that we retire certain things and let those words belong to the people that they belong to and the communities that they belong to, and not weaponize them. Words, we’ve said it before. Words matter, words hurt, words can uplift, words can destroy, wars are fought over words and things that words represent. And we need to really be aware and cautious of how we use language to either weaponize or to ameliorate our situations.

Allie Nimmons:
Good word, ameliorate. Yeah. Instead of woke, we use ameliorate.

Michelle Frechette:
I reached really hard for that one, and I pulled it right out.

Allie Nimmons:
I used egregious yesterday correctly, and I was like-

Michelle Frechette:
That’s a good one.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, good word.

Michelle Frechette:
That’s a good one. Yeah, it is.

Allie Nimmons:
But yeah, this could be a slightly shorter episode today because that’s really all I wanted to say is, I wanted to teach people a little bit about the history of the word, because I think it just popped into our consciousness in the last couple of years. And I want people to understand, just like so many other things in this country. It was a black idea that was very nuanced and specific and important that was stolen.

Michelle Frechette:
Yes, yes.

Allie Nimmons:
And yeah, we can add that to our list of, “let’s not” words, I think.

Michelle Frechette:
Exactly. Our newsletter should carry a little section of, “words we are retiring.”

Allie Nimmons:
That would actually be really cute.

Michelle Frechette:
Yeah. Words and phrases you should retire unless you belong to the community that owns them. Yeah.

Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. So yeah-

Michelle Frechette:
I like it.

Allie Nimmons:
I’d recommend, if you’re listening, send this to someone, send this to another ally that you might’ve heard, use this word. During my workshop the other week, one of the questions was, it seems like a minefield of what words I can use and what words I can’t. How do I know? How do I keep up? This is what we’re trying to do, right?

Michelle Frechette:
This is it.

Allie Nimmons:
This is your sign.

Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely. Maybe we’ll start a page on the website for those. I haven’t ever found one that’s really exhaustive. And as long as we’re talking about the podcast, sending it to everybody, let’s also mention that, if you appreciate the work that we do in our community, you can sponsor us. We have a sponsor page on our website, so we don’t put that out there very often. We aren’t in this for the money, but we do also preach that people should value the work that they do and not always give away all the work that they do for free. And so, asking for sponsorships or making that opportunity available to those of you who are listening, is not a way for us to just build an empire. It is a way for us to value the work that we do and let others value the work that we’re doing in the community, as well. So if you’re interested, we have a page on our website. You can DM us on Twitter or in Slack or whatever. We’re more than happy to hook you up with that page.

Allie Nimmons:
Absolutely. Well said.

Michelle Frechette:
Thanks.

Allie Nimmons:
All right. So we’ll catch you all in the next one. Bye.

Michelle Frechette:
See you then. Bye.

Allie Nimmons:
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