There are so many words in the English language that have far-back meanings we’ve come to forget. Many are used in the tech industry without a second thought. Some we may use in our personal lives. In this episode, Allie and Michelle provide you with some examples of words and phrases with racist origins that we should try to avoid!
Episode Transcript
Allie Nimmons:
Welcome to the Underrepresented In Tech podcast, hosted by Michelle Frechette and Allie Nimmons. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database, but with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech overall.
Michelle Frechette:
Hi, Allie.
Allie Nimmons:
Hi, Michelle. How are you?
Michelle Frechette:
I’m good. I’m tired. There’s so much happening, leading up to Word Camp US.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah, seriously.
Michelle Frechette:
And of course there’s a vacation day or a holiday in between. So instead of having five days to get five days worth of work done heading up to flying out, it’s like four days and then three days and then two days it’s like, “Oh, booger.” I have tomorrow and Tuesday. And then I’m on a plane. So I’m maybe burning the candle at both ends. How are you?
Allie Nimmons:
I’m good. I’m feeling the exact same way. Just there’s so many things to do. And suddenly it’s here. I’m saying next week now, which is crazy because we used to say like, “Oh yeah, in September, in September.” And now it’s next week. But I am trying to just hold on to all the joy that is going to come and seeing you and being able to just snuggle up next to you and hang out and seeing all of our other friends, it’s going to be so emotionally overwhelm… It makes me want to cry just thinking about it.
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, same.
Allie Nimmons:
So I’m trying to focus on, even if we don’t get everything done that we have to get done, it’s going to be amazing and it’s going to be fun and we’re going to have a great time.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely.
Allie Nimmons:
I’m so excited. But yeah, life also must go on. We must record podcast content for our audience. So that is why we are here.
Michelle Frechette:
Yes. Yes we are. Well, I had sent you a list of some words that I’ve been building to peruse over and think about having as one of our podcast topics and our whole idea along the lines that words matter. We’ve talked before, we’ve used that phrase “words matter” because words matter, words are the way we communicate with one another, it is how we perceive our self value in our own head. The talk that we put in our own head, those are words that we have in our own head and how we communicate value to others using language. And we’ve talked about ableist language, we’ve talked about racist language, we’ve talked about those things. What I want to talk about today are the things that have become, over time, commonplace phrases that actually have racist roots.
And things that should be removed from the common vernacular because of where they have come from. So for example, one of the things that I did working at Give is I removed the word white listing. So I used to say, “Oh, we’ve white listed your IP address so you could use it on your development site as well as your live site.” I took that out there because the idea of white versus dark, good versus evil, and the whole idea is that it isn’t… I’m sorry, I love wearing black. Black’s one of my favorite colors. If I walk out of the house wearing black, I’m not the bad guy in an old Western movie, I’m just wearing a color that makes me happy.
And so to vilify a color or glorify a color based on good versus bad behavior is, at its core, a racist thing to do. So what I did because people are like, “Well, what do you do you say if you don’t use white listing?” I would say, “I’ve added your other domain to your licensing so that… ” And actually some people don’t even know what white listing means. And so I was actually removing some of the mystification around some of the language that we were using.
Allie Nimmons:
I’ve also heard-
Michelle Frechette:
That’s a simple example of what I’m talking about.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. I’ve also heard you have a allow or a disallow list, or block or an unblock. There’s so many other ways to say it that, you’re totally right, are so much more clear and obvious to somebody who may not be familiar with the jargon or the terms and all of these things. And a lot of times for a job like yours working at Give, helping people with licensing, you might be dealing with someone who just runs a nonprofit and doesn’t code. So they may not know. So it makes a lot more sense to just be clear rather than using the vernacular, especially when the vernacular can be harmful.
Michelle Frechette:
Especially for people for whom English isn’t their first language. So you’re working with customers all over the world. Maybe some of the terms we’re going to talk about today, don’t make any sense in other languages because they are colloquialisms and things like that. So I thought we could kind of walk down through the list today. If you’re listening, Allie is the queen of, “Google it quick,” and I am the queen of, “I’ll find it eventually.” So if we don’t have the origin of things, she’s going to Google them when we’re talking about them.
But the first thing I wanted to put on there and things that, let’s just say, a lot of us have used a lot of these words over the time. I will honestly say I haven’t used all of them just because some of them just haven’t made sense in my life. But the first one on the list is something that, until recently, a lot of us didn’t know had racist roots and that is grandfathered in. So oftentimes we’ll talk about somebody being grandfathered in meaning that whatever situation they arrived at originally, in spite of any changes that happened thereafter, they are still allowed the original conditions [inaudible 00:05:56]-
Allie Nimmons:
Continues to apply.
Michelle Frechette:
So I may have purchased a plugin at a certain fee, annual subscription rate. The prices go up later and we would used to say, “You’re still grandfathered it at the original price.” I had no idea why that was a thing. Why did we call it that? But you have the answer. So tell us-
Allie Nimmons:
I do.
Michelle Frechette:
Where that comes from.
Allie Nimmons:
So the original term refers to… And I’m plagiarizing reading verbatim off of what I find on Google so that I can get the language right, I don’t miss say anything, refers to statutes, or I guess rules, put in place after the civil war here in America, by the Southern states. And the cause of that was to block African Americans or ex-slaves from voting while exempting white voters from taking literacy tests and paying poll taxes required to vote. So it’s kind of like, “Well, your grandfather couldn’t vote. So neither can you,” sort of an idea. You’re grandfathered in literally to that rule of, “You can’t vote. You don’t have the right to be able to do this.”
Michelle Frechette:
It was actually the opposite. It was you grandfathered in the white people. So the white people who always had the right to vote, whether or not they had literacy, they were grandfathered in because their grandfather could vote. And it was a way to gate keep out any black and African American people from being able to vote because they didn’t have grandfathers here that did that. So you were grandfathered in if you had a legacy behind you that allowed those kinds of things to happen.
Allie Nimmons:
Got it. Okay. Yeah, I had it a little bit backwards but you get the idea.
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, for sure, for sure. The next term I have, my daughter brought to me because I was going over the list, I said, “What other words would you add to the list?” And she said Indian giver. Now I haven’t used that since I was a kid and didn’t know any better. I mean, I am a work in progress, people. I have not been completely little Mary sunshine my entire life. I didn’t know as a kid that some of these things that I was talking about now, I shouldn’t have said.
Allie Nimmons:
I didn’t know.
Michelle Frechette:
Right? I removed them from my vocabulary now.
Allie Nimmons:
In the ’90s, we definitely said Indian giver all the time. I don’t know if you ever did this, you would take someone’s arm kind of like this and you would rub like this way. I don’t know [inaudible 00:08:16]-
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah, a friction burn.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. We’d call it an Indian burn. No idea why but like what the heck? I would never say that now.
Michelle Frechette:
Don’t say it now, that’s right. But what do you have where Indian giver came from?
Allie Nimmons:
So Indian giver derives from the… It says alleged practice of American Indians here in the US of taking back gifts from white settlers that they had given them. What it says here is it is more likely that the settlers wrongly interpreted the Indians loans to them as gifts. So the Native American would loan a tool or something to the white settler. They interpreted that as, “Oh, you’re giving it to me.” And then when they took it back, they were like, “Oh, you’re an Indian giver. You didn’t hold to your word. You are deceptive, blah, blah, blah.” And it sounds like a very easy way to just vilify someone despite not understanding what it is that they intended.
Michelle Frechette:
Give a gift and take it back. And so it obviously has racist roots in it. The next one has taken me a while to change my language because it’s so ingrained in realty that the primary bedroom is called the master bedroom. And anything else is secondary or tertiary or smaller or kids’ rooms or whatever you want to call them. And I was like, “It’s just called the master bedroom. Why is it called the master?” Well, it’s called the master bedroom because it hearkens back to slave times when the master of the house had the biggest bedroom.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. That one’s pretty self explanatory. I mean, if you have master or slave in the phrase or word, it’s pretty self explanatory of where that came from. What’s interesting, I Googled that one even though I knew what it, and it only first appeared… At least I guess, in writing or in the way that we referred to it, the big bedroom, the one with the bathroom attached, blah, blah, blah, in a Sears catalog in 1926. But it was referring to a colonial era home that had a master bedroom for the master of the house to sleep in. And, again, there’s so many other phrases that you can use that makes so much more sense, especially to a non-English speaker like the main bedroom, the big bedroom.
Michelle Frechette:
The primary bedroom.
Allie Nimmons:
Whatever, primary bedroom, all of those things. We’re going to name a lot of things that people probably haven’t heard before, but I always balk at the master/slave use case because it’s just like that one is [inaudible 00:10:57]-
Michelle Frechette:
And in technology we haven’t traditionally used master/slave to talk about the way that networks work within itself.
Allie Nimmons:
Master list.
Michelle Frechette:
We need to get rid of that stuff too. Primary is a great way to change master. So the primary list is still the first one, the one you refer to the most, the one that’s the original, the OG list. I think we should call it OG list. Okay. Next one is peanut gallery. Peanut gallery often refers to the people who are observing and laughing. We would say, “Hey, let’s ask the peanut gallery,” meaning all the people who aren’t the principles on stage that also has racist roots. Tell us about that, Allie.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. So it originates from late 1800s vaudeville area of theater. It was usually the cheapest section of seats usually occupied by people with limited means, which can be racial minorities, not always. And in the segregated south region of the United States, the seats in the back or the upper balcony levels were mostly reserved for black people because they were not allowed to sit upfront. We’ve heard that a lot. It was also referred to as other phrases that have the N word in them. So this is specifically the blank gallery or the blank area or the blank Haven for these particular types of people. And it was specifically to keep them segregated. And now we say peanut gallery, we don’t say other gallery, but it was very specifically used for that purpose.
Michelle Frechette:
The next one I did not know either which is cakewalk. And we often say that something’s a cakewalk if it’s easy. I think I told you this, a kindergartner, we had one of those fair days at school and there was an actual cakewalk, which is the circle of squares on the floor, they were numbered, the music would stop, and they’d spin a card or whatever, and whatever number came up, that person literally won a cake. And I won a cake. And the next day, apparently we had ants in our house. The next day that cake was covered in ants and we couldn’t eat it. See, it was harbinger of this conversation.
Allie Nimmons:
The ants are like, “Not on my watch.”
Michelle Frechette:
“Not on my watch. You can’t have that racist cake.” Tell us where that comes from.
Allie Nimmons:
So the cakewalk was actually an event. It was a pre-Civil war, so during the time of slavery, everything before civil war in America is slavery, it was a pre-Civil war dance originally performed by slaves on plantation grounds. It’s a uniquely American thing. First known as the prize walk and the prize was an elaborately decorated cake. I do remember reading a little bit about this and I believe it was sort of like, “Oh, it’s a nice thing for the masters to do for the slaves. You get a prize, you get some delicious cake.” But it was also very much for their amusement to just make the slaves dance for them. Which makes me feel super icky on the inside.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely.
Allie Nimmons:
And yeah, we just look at it now as like, oh yeah, it was a cake walk. It was a breeze. It was super easy and yeah, that’s definitely not always what it meant.
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah. The next one I think is kind of when you know the original phrase is eeny, meeny, miny, moe, absolutely because as I grew up, it was catch tiger by the toe. The original language was not tiger. It started with the N word there. And so clearly that has some very racist roots. We got so many of them, stop me if you want to stop on a particular one, Allie, but I’m going to go through a couple of them quickly. Call a spade a spade, which means call it like you see it. But to use that particular phrase is also problematic. Do you have that one up?
Allie Nimmons:
I don’t have that one up right now. Go to the next one and we’ll circle back to that one.
Michelle Frechette:
I will. So the next two actually have to do more with Native Americans. One is that we use the word tribe interchangeably with group of people that we have at affinity with. And that actually does infringe on Native American language in which tribes to them are very spiritual and very much have to do with the group of people that are family and extended family in Native American culture. And so for us to appropriate that is also not something that we should do. And then one after that is spirit animal. Oftentimes we’ll hear people say, “Oh my spirit animal is this or my spirit animal is that,” just in an offhanded kind of way. But, again, that is downplaying. What is truly a spiritual experience for people who are native Americans and who have that as part of their culture. So using those phrases are something that we also would warn you you probably shouldn’t do.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. So the call spade a spade one is actually kind of complex. That phrase has a really long history going back to the Greeks. And in this case, when we talk about a spade, it looks like we’re speaking about… It changes throughout and so the more racist history with that begins in the late 1920s. And spade was code for a black person. Eventually the phrase, “Black as the ace of spades,” also became widely used.
Maybe this article is just not very helpful, but it was mostly used to mostly used as a slur. It was just another way to isolate and to identify, “This person is different, this person is black, they’re as black as a spade, as black as a shovel.” Spade lit was used to refer to black babies, black children. And at a certain time we did try to reclaim it sort of like the N word. And yeah, it’s just one of those weird parts of black American history where it’s like this started being a word that was used to describe us in order to other us. So yeah, I would recommend if you’re curious about that, do a little bit more research about it because it looks like there’s actually a really complex, long history with that phrase in that use.
Michelle Frechette:
But none of it is a positive connotation?
Allie Nimmons:
Nope. That’s for sure.
Michelle Frechette:
So you can point to a different part of the history of it and say, “It’s not so bad,” it’s all bad, so don’t do that. The next three that I have are actually phrases that some of us have used and that we see in writing quite a bit, but that our were ways of dehumanizing language and mocking the way that people use language. So, for example, the mumbo jumbo is one where people talk would talk about not being able to understand the way that African slaves spoke to each other in their language. And so I’m sure there’s more to it than that, but to be able to just say, “They’re speaking mumbo jumbo, they’re just talking gibberish,” that kind of thing to downplay the fact that the language was important to people and that just because you can’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s nonsensical and incomprehensible.
Allie Nimmons:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Michelle Frechette:
Then the next two are actually slurs against the specifically I think, but I could be wrong. Chinese immigration and slavery that happened into specifically coming into the west coast of the United States. And that was a play on their language also. One was, “No can do.” Go ahead.
Allie Nimmons:
I was just going to say, do you think it was just Chinese or do you think Japanese as well because there was a lot of discrimination against Japanese immigrants as well in post World War II.
Michelle Frechette:
Yeah. I think World War II, I’m sure that’s some of that. I think that the basic slavery of Chinese-Americans into the railroad building and the gold rush culture of California is where a lot of this came from into Chinese laundries and things like that. And so people would say no can do, which would be a mocking of how Chinese people translated directly into English from the way that their language is formatted. So for example, if I were to speak Spanish, I would put words in different order than we would hear in the United States. And also in other languages, you can drop the word I. So I could just say, “Estoy consado.” I’m tired. But I didn’t say, “Yo estoy cansado.”
But in English, we put words together. We’d say, “I’m tired,” and not, “I am tired.” So what happens with other languages is we mock them in the past and dehumanize them by mocking the way their language is formatted and how they say English words based on the format of their primary language. So, “No can do,” instead of, “I can’t do that.” Or, “Long time, no see.” So those were both ways to mock Asian-Americans in the turn of the century here… In the previous century, in the turn of the century. Two turns of the century ago.
Allie Nimmons:
And what occurs to me with those is I think that is what we might consider or call broken English, which I never thought about even that phrase being so messed up. They’re speaking the language as best as they can based off of the way their brains are wired to order the words, it’s not broken. That phrase even puts the impetus on the person that their English needs to be exactly perfect, but you can understand them and it’s not broken. That makes me feel a little emotional just realizing that in the moment as well.
Michelle Frechette:
My Spanish is fractured and shattered, if you’re going to talk about broken language because I know that I don’t do a very good job. But I can communicate with people and that’s important. And that is also important in the other direction. The next one is a word that we don’t use anymore and it’s Oriental. So my grandmother used to call anybody from Asia Oriental and that’s because when she grew up, that’s what they called people. And the idea of the orient and the occident. So the Western hemisphere versus the Eastern hemisphere, we don’t call us occidentals. So we shouldn’t call anybody else Orientals. And realistically, what that does, is it lumps an entire population of people into one-
Allie Nimmons:
Multiple countries as well.
Michelle Frechette:
Yep, exactly. Into one homogeneous group without giving them any autonomy from where they come and honoring their history in their individual cultures. So to say somebody is-
Allie Nimmons:
It’s very othering. It’s very xenophobic to just be like-
Michelle Frechette:
It’s incredibly othering.
Allie Nimmons:
… “Yeah, they are that group of people. And we are normal,” is what it kind of implies.
Michelle Frechette:
Right. I don’t ever refer to any of my friends as my Asian friends, I might say, “Oh, she’s my friend from China. Or he’s my friend from Pakistan. Or she’s my friend from Japan.” But I’m not going to call them my, “Oriental friends or my Asian friends,” just like they don’t call us, “Our North American friends.” They would say, “My American friend.” So the only thing we still label Oriental are rugs. And that’s the only thing that should ever be called that.
Allie Nimmons:
And that is actually what I found when I Googled it because there is some kind of conversation or debate almost over, “Well, is this just outdated or is it racist?” And because during so much of the 1900s and 1800s hundreds, we used that word, that was a time in the west where we were super xenophobic to that part of the world. And we fetishized and romanticized and exaggerated a lot of those things. So I found an article in the Los Angeles times that describes, when you say Oriental, it evokes incense and the sound of a gong. And, like you said, rugs and things like that, which we mysticized in all of these ways without really looking at the humans that are a part of that culture.
And so by not using Oriental to describe the people and the culture anymore, we’re distancing ourselves from that period of time where we really dehumanized those people. I think that’s important to think about for all of these words, you might be sitting here listening or you might have even clicked away because you’re like, “Oh, they’re just words. What does it matter?” The words we use change the way we think about the world and they change the way we think about people.
So the difference in the moment of saying Oriental or Japanese might not feel very big to you, but it recolors the way that we define things and that recolors our actions eventually. So I think Oriental is a really good example of that in that there are a lot of, from what I understand, and through this article, there are many Japanese, Chinese, Korean people who don’t really find too much of a problem with that because they do acknowledge that area of the world has always been referred to as the Orient. But I think it’s really important to not have this exoticsized attitude around these stereotypes that this one word can represent. So that’s my little soapbox about that.
Michelle Frechette:
Absolutely. The next one that I have, I’m saving the other one for last, but the next one we had was black hat versus white hat developer. We already talked about that being good versus bad. But I didn’t want to not mention it. So push that back up to the beginning of the list where we talking about white listing and good versus evil and all that kind of.
Allie Nimmons:
Stuff. Black hat, white hat, SEO as well, is really popular.
Michelle Frechette:
Exactly. Exactly. Then the last one I’m going to talk about is in the ’80s in particular and the ’90s there was this big movement to not see color. “I don’t see color,” and you’ll still hear people say this, or I’ll still see people put this out on social media. “I don’t care if somebody is black or white. I don’t see color.” That is not true. You do see color.
Allie Nimmons:
Unless you’re literally blind.
Michelle Frechette:
Unless you have no vision at all, you see color. And to say, “I don’t see color,” means that it doesn’t matter if Allie’s a black woman, I’m going to value everybody just the same. But to say that you don’t see her color means that you aren’t also valuing that part of her existence. Do you remember Benetton? I don’t know if Benetton the brand is still around. But in the ’80s they had this marketing campaign called the United Colors of Benetton. And so all the ads had different skin toned people in the ads together, all holding hands together, so you could see that no matter who we are, we all made up the world. That kind of thing. I think that that had a lot to do with the, “I don’t see color,” thing. We’re all United. The whole idea of the United States is the melting pot. New York city was the melting pot.
And I grew up learning about the melting pot in school and how that was a good thing that anybody was welcome here. And now thinking back over it, the melting pot, isn’t a good thing at all. The melting pot says, “We’re throwing everybody in the same stew and we’re going to homogenize the heck out of everybody. You’re just American now.” But that doesn’t honor tradition, that doesn’t honor culture, that doesn’t honor self identity and the different things that go into making each one of us the person that we are. And so [inaudible 00:27:45]-
Allie Nimmons:
And it encourages people to be more comfortable with othering each other. “If you come to this country… ” I’m being sarcastic here, putting this all in slashes or whatever, “If you come to this country, it’s a melting pot. So you’re supposed to now be American, which means you eat American food and you sound American and you dress American.”
Michelle Frechette:
“You must assimilate.”
Allie Nimmons:
“You must assimilate.” That’s totally not what the point was to begin with. You’re exactly right, a melting pot means all the flavors just become one big flavor and we should be more like a salad is what we should describe America.
Michelle Frechette:
So I think about the melting pot of crayons. So think of that big box of 64 crayons we all love with the built in pencil sharpener when we were kids. If I color with the red crayon, I see red. If I color with the blue green versus the green blue, I never understood that, I get two different colors. If I peel all of the peelings off all those crayons, throw them in a pot, turn it on, and melt them all together. I get sludge. I don’t get a pretty color. I don’t have a pot full of rainbow.
Allie Nimmons:
You usually get brown.
Michelle Frechette:
I have a pot full of brown. I love you. Allie. Brown is not a bad color.
Allie Nimmons:
I wasn’t even thinking about that [inaudible 00:29:16]. But you just get one thing, is the point.
Michelle Frechette:
You just get one thing it becomes homogenized and you don’t get the beautiful things that make up each of us individually and what we can all bring to the table. And so the idea of the melting pot is to make everybody the same, which is not what we actually want in reality.
Allie Nimmons:
And when people say to me, “I don’t see color,” I hear that. But I also hear, “I don’t acknowledge that your color makes things difficult for you. I don’t acknowledge your struggles. I don’t acknowledge any of those things. I don’t believe you that racism or prejudice affects your life,” that’s what I hear. And I’m like, “No, I want you to look at me and see that I’m black because barring lots of surgery and self harm, I can’t get rid of that.” What I want is for someone to put me and my personality and my skills and all of those things first when speaking to me, making decisions about me and so on. But I want my color to be acknowledged both as a pro and a con in my existence on this planet. And I think that requires more work. People don’t like to do work.
Michelle Frechette:
They do not.
Allie Nimmons:
It’s easier to just say, “I don’t acknowledge color or I don’t see color.” It also pisses me off when people say, “I don’t care if you’re black, white, polka dot, green, purple blah, blah, blah,” because… I hate that I did that with a Southern accent.
Michelle Frechette:
I know. I know.
Allie Nimmons:
Because what my mom would always say, my mom brought this up to me, I’d never noticed it. She was like, “Nobody is polka dot, purple, or green.” So you’re lumping black people in with this imaginary alien purple person? No, stop othering me.
Michelle Frechette:
Yes, exactly.
Allie Nimmons:
Skin colors come in all different kinds of… Even if you’re white, you can line up 100 white people. Their skin’s all going to be a little bit different.
Michelle Frechette:
And none of us are actually white. Right? We’re all some weird shade of pink, I guess.
Allie Nimmons:
And none of us are actually black.
Michelle Frechette:
No, exactly. Right. I mean, it’s like, “Hello? There’s a whole spectrum of people out the world.” So my whole reason to bring this up was, number one, I always think it’s interesting to learn these things. I don’t like to just be told, “Don’t say that.” I’m fine with not saying something. If you tell me, “Don’t say that because it’s racist,” I’m not going to say it. But I also like to learn why. And I think it’s important if we’re going to share with people things that you should or shouldn’t… Or at least consider not saying to give you the reason why and where the origin from that comes from… Origin comes from? Anyway, you know what I’m trying to say, where the origin is so that it makes better sense to you why you would not use those certain kinds of languages.
Allie Nimmons:
And I think it’s important for people to really and truly realize and understand how pervasive these thoughts are in our language, in our society, in our culture, in our systems. The people who don’t like to believe that all of this stuff is real, that it’s a problem, when you learn about how integrated it all is and how much of it has become adopted, you start to see, yes, it’s very real. And it’s been very real for a very long time. And one of the things that we can really do to change that reality is to start with things like being mindful of the way that we speak to each other and the words and the thoughts that we perpetuate with each other, I think is really important.
Michelle Frechette:
I agree. Absolutely. Cool. So if you’ve listened to us all the way through, thank you. We appreciate that. Sometimes we ramble, but we are always passionate about what we’re talking about.
Allie Nimmons:
Absolutely.
Michelle Frechette:
And we appreciate you and we hope that if there’s other things you have to add to the list, tell us. If you have better ways to say things that are on the list that we’ve carried forward, please incorporate those into your daily language and share them with us as well. We would love to be able to make the world a little bit better place.
Allie Nimmons:
Absolutely. Thanks so much for listening.
Michelle Frechette:
Bye.
Allie Nimmons:
Bye.
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