Understanding Cultural Appropriation vs. Appreciation

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations.

 

Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with a goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.

 

[00:00:17] Speaker B: Hi, Samah, hi, Michelle, and hi, everybody.

 

[00:00:21] Speaker A: Who’s listening to us.

 

[00:00:24] Speaker B: I think everyone is good.

 

[00:00:30] Speaker A: We sing to each other. Even if I’m having a bad day, as soon as I do my little high summer, it makes me feel good, and I start to smile. And so it’s a good thing for sure. Now, I know some people listen to the podcast and aren’t watching the podcast, but today, okay, first of all, I have a hat on because it’s a very bad hair day, but I’m also wearing a scarf. And it’s. I’m going to say it, and you’re going to correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s a keffiyeh.

 

[00:00:57] Speaker B: Good for you at the end.

 

[00:00:58] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. And if you don’t know what a keffiyeh is, why don’t you explain it? Because I know there’s cultural significance in the pattern and everything else.

 

[00:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah. keffiyeh. It’s a Palestinian scarf. It’s to present an olive tree and a lot of symbols in it. I’m not gonna go into small details in it, but it’s something you can wear and you can know, like, if you’re coming from the Middle East, supporting Palestine, Palestinian, whatever. And it is, everyone can wear it. If you’re Palestinian or from the Middle East, Arab, African, Asian, or whatever you are around the world, everyone can wear it without any restrictions.

 

[00:01:39] Speaker A: Right. And before I, I bought one to be supportive, and I bought it from a Palestinian online store so that I was not just paying somebody in the United States to make them, you know, a kind of thing. I wanted to make sure that the money was going somewhere that would actually support the community.

 

But before I ever thought to wear it, I asked you, Is it okay for me to wear this as a white woman in the United States? And you said, absolutely, we love the support. Showing your support is something that’s very important.

 

This brought me to other questions, such as: What is cultural appropriation? What is cultural support or support of the community?

 

And what is just okay, it doesn’t matter, right? We wear things that are from different parts of the world. Like, I’m wearing a black hat today. If I tipped it to one side, it could almost be a beret. I do have several berets in my, you know, in my hat collection. It is not cultural appropriation for me to wear a beret.

 

It’s just not. It’s a French hat, but I can wear a beret.

 

I could wear a cowboy hat, but I’m not from the South, United States, where cowboy hats were part of necessity from the sun and heat and all of those things. But I could wear a cowboy hat. And that is not cultural appropriation either.

 

However, if I wanted to wear my hair in cornrows, Bantu knots, or an Afro, that would be considered cultural appropriation of black hair. So I can wear certain braids, and it’s not cultural appropriation, but wearing my hair in cornrows specifically.

 

Excuse me.

 

You might remember, probably 10 years ago now, Adele, the singer, wore bantu knots in her hair when she was in Jamaica, and she was blasted all over the Internet for cultural appropriation as a white woman. And so I wanted to talk to you today about different ideas.

 

What is cultural appropriation? What is not? What is seen as just a beautiful dress that’s and, and garments and accessories that you can wear around the world with no fear of appropriation. And what things are actually sacred to communities and should only be worn or used by those communities? And so I thought that would be. With my keffiyeh today would be something that would be kind of cool too. To talk about. So it is 80. It’s going to get up to like 75, 80 degrees here today. So this is probably only through the morning. And as it gets a little warmer later, I’ll probably have to take it off. But. But I love it, and I was excited to wear it with you today. So what are, what are some of your thoughts? And I will drink my coffee and stop talking for a minute.

 

[00:04:18] Speaker B: My thought is like, of course, the cultural appropriation. It’s like people need a little bit to understand it. Of course, like when wearing a kofiyah or wearing a head scarf as a Muslim woman or as a Jewish woman, because Jewish women also wear the scarf. The way to put it, of course, I believe it is more about understanding the history, the culture behind it, and respecting, of course, when we were talking about the African or the black history of slavery or of the racism they are suffering, and you need to understand and respect it. And if it’s also, I don’t know, every time we’re involved and we’re getting to know, understanding each other, culture appreciates it in the right way more and more. And as you said, like sometimes it’s okay to ask those questions. Especially someone from. From the. The culture. For example, I love the African scarf Duku. Like the way they. They put it. And I know it is African women who take a lot of pride if. Especially if you’re in Senegal, Nigeria, or Kenya. And I love the way they put it in the colorful. Even in Congo. I found it very beautiful.

 

[00:05:38] Speaker A: It is.

 

[00:05:40] Speaker B: I. I know they don’t mind. I asked a couple of women if it’s mine, if there’s a way to put it. I found it very beautiful. But it’s always nice for us if I wear it. And of course, you need to ask behind it why you do it like this. Or, of course, why you’re wearing it in that way to get a better understanding of. For it. And also at the same time, even about food. Because people think it’s only about the looks. But even like eating food or selling food for another culture without giving them the credit or understanding why that food was made or how it’s made, or then that’s something like it’s not acceptable. I am. I don’t know, especially when it comes to food.

 

No, it’s. It’s understanding the culture and why, like Palestine. And this is the sign of our struggle and fight for freedom. It’s also from the old times when people used to wear it. The olive sign on it. There are a lot of symbols in it. And to support Palestinians, you to wear it. It is okay. But also sometimes I don’t think it will be nice if you wear it as a tank top. You know, I will find it. I will find the scarf, like ah. It’s a little bit weird. Of course, there is a designer making dresses and stuff. But the scarf itself, it’s like should be, you know, giving more of this like fighting for freedom, revolution, the struggle. It’s not to be a tank top. I don’t like it tank top.

 

So yeah. And also, I don’t know, just ask and understand the culture because most people do it because they think they’re looking cool, not because they understand the culture behind it.

 

[00:07:26] Speaker A: Right. There’s a big difference between appropriate and appropriation. For sure.

 

I was thinking about duku, like you were saying. You think it’s. And you’ve been to Africa. Your husband has worked there, and you’ve visited him in different African countries. I should say. I know Africa is not a country. I do know this. It’s a continent.

 

But there are so many countries in Africa, and they all have their own deep-rooted history.

 

The duke in one country may be something different in another. And how they wear it and how they use it, the dashiki, the patterns, the fabrics, and all of that.

 

All of that to say that yes, we. Our research says that you’re as any woman is allowed to wear. Any person is allowed to wear dooku. And it is not appropriate. However, if let’s say Vogue or Elle or one of those fashion magazines.

 

Excuse me, I got a frog in my throat.

 

Where to put six white women in a desert photo, right? It looks like a desert or whatever, and they’re wearing dashiki and dooku, but they’re only white women in the picture. That would be wrong because then you are removing any history and tie to the ethnicity of those people by just appropriating it for your photo shoot. So can you, samah, or I wear a duku? Yes, we can.

 

Could I use it inappropriately?

 

It would be inappropriate to do that. What I was just talking about. So there’s nuance to everything as well.

 

I love, I think it is so beautiful, the Sari  in India. And I think it’s just like I wish I still had it. My father, when I was 12 or 13, went to India, and he brought me back a sari and that. I mean, I’m 56 now. I have no idea where that ended up in the different moves of our family and things like that. It certainly didn’t go to college with me. And then when I moved out on my own, it was nowhere to be found.

 

It was so beautiful and I wish I still had it.

 

And so maybe next year in Mumbai, I will buy a sari because my research shows that it is not inappropriate for a white woman to wear a sari in certain cultural situations. So, were I to go to an Indian wedding, absolutely I could wear the saree. I mean, I could wear it around day to day too, but that would just be a little odd because very few of my Indian friends outside of India ever wear a sari except in, you know, very. For special occasions. But it’s not inappropriate for me to do that.

 

It’s not inappropriate for me to wear braids, but it is inappropriate for me to wear box braids or bantu knots and those kinds of things. And so if you are ever in doubt, it’s very easy to Google or chatGPT those kinds of things. I wondered about wearing a hijab. So, I’m a very long time ago, probably 15 years ago, there were a lot of racist things happening in the United States and beyond to Women who were wearing hijab.

 

I reached out to some of my Muslim friends who were in my doctoral program with me then and said, “I want to show my solidarity with you. Would it be appropriate for me to wear a hijab to show my solidarity?”

 

And my friend Miriam said to me, it’s not inappropriate, but we don’t want you to do it because we don’t want you to be shot or harassed or, you know, that by showing my solidarity, they didn’t want me to fall under the same racism that they were experiencing. So they weren’t banning me from doing it, but they were watching out for me. My benefit and my health. And my research today shows that anybody can wear a hijab. It’s not inappropriate to do that.

 

But listen to your friends also. For example, I could wear a hijab, but my friends say, “I don’t want you to deal with the same kinds of problems that we deal with.” So, only do that if you truly feel led to, not because you just want to show your solidarity with us. There are so many different nuances and different ways that we can look at appropriation.

 

You know, I can’t remember if I said it on the show or if we said it beforehand, but I think it was beforehand. The box braids that people tend to wear are, first of all, it’s a beautiful hairstyle. My daughter wears them often. She is a black woman, so it is not culturally inappropriate for her to wear braids.

 

It was mainly mainstreamed in the 1970s in a movie called 10.

 

A white actress named Bo Derek had box braids with beads and everything on the end in a white bathing suit, running down the beach. The braids were swinging and everything. And that’s like women looked at that and said, “Oh, that’s pretty. I want to get my hair done like that, too.”

 

It is inappropriate for a white woman to wear box braids, especially.

 

Especially in the United States, I can let. As I’ve often said, I can only speak from my own personal experience here, but my research also says that around the world, we need to be appropriate. You know, we need to act appropriately and not inappropriately because of how the tradition has arisen and what box braids mean to the black community.

 

Up through slavery, up through. Through all the different African nations as well.

 

Natural hairstyles like Afros, box braids, and cornrows are only appropriate for black women, so it is inappropriate for me to do them. However, I did see lots of activity on Tick Tock over the last year where people were saying, “Well, I’m a white woman, and I wear box braids because Vikings wore box braids.” I can trace my history back to the Vikings.

 

But if you do your true research, Vikings wearing box braids is very Hollywood and it’s not very historical. And so before you claim anything in your history as giving you, you know, giving you the appropriate version of wearing something that may not actually be. Do your research.

 

Google is free.

 

Vikings wear braids. Absolutely. Scandinavian braids are a thing. Absolutely. Box braids.

 

Cornrows. No. Braids. Yes.

 

So my grandmother was Swedish. I loved wearing braids as a kid. And I would just wrap them one, one time over the top of my head.

 

I’ll give you the photo, somehow you can put it in the show notes if people want to see little Michelle with the braids on her head.

 

Crooked smile, crooked glasses. And I was wearing my favorite sweater, but it has like this, this ruffle at the top and a string. It looks like somebody put me in a bag and tied it shut around my neck. I will give you the photo.

 

I was cute, darn it. But this photo is maybe not my best, but I, but, but that wearing of braids, given my Swedish background, my history through my grandmother, absolutely appropriate. And even if you’re not Swedish, that braid is appropriate.

 

You know, you can do fishtail braids, you can do, you know, just three-strand braids, you can do French braids. All of that is appropriate. It’s when you veer into the box braids, cornrows, et cetera, that it becomes inappropriate for a white woman to do that.

 

[00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you. And also sometimes I. It also makes me love those videos. Like I once did, the DNA test. I am like almost 18% North African and 1.7% Nigerian.

 

I don’t have the honor to call myself African. I wish I were super cool. But the thing is like, I found that sometimes the people who don’t want to make the effort, they don’t want to Google it. It also happened during their traditional or holiday in the Netherlands. I don’t like it. People hear me from the Netherlands call me Santa Claus. They paint your face black. It’s traditional. And because you’re coming out of the chimney. But also. And then they said like, Oh, but they could.

 

This is like going a little bit sometimes, blackface. Yeah. If you look a little bit into the culture and why the white people were painting themselves black to portray black people in the theater, in the movie theater. Because they were not. This is a lot of history behind it, a lot of suffering, a lot of. Also, people need to find their place. And still people like find it. Oh no. It’s funny. We used to do it. No, but I think.

 

And maybe I’m going now to the other side, to the extreme. But also understanding the history also gives you, like, yeah, I. I want to do it like this, or I want to do it like that. And I understand, as you say, the French braids or the French hat.

 

There’s no. Of course, there’s history behind it, who invented it, and why they put it la la la. But also at the same time, sadly, other cultures, the. The history was not very beautiful and sunny, or flowery. And positive, and other people are there. The simplicity of wearing the scarf meant something. The simplicity of braiding your hair meant something to eat the specific food on that specific day. It tells a story of a whole nation. And sometimes, just understanding it before copying can mean a lot for the people who really went to a lot to make sure it could happen.

 

[00:17:12] Speaker A: At the base of it, it’s about the power dynamic. So if the culture that you are wanting to take hairstyles or clothing from is from a repressed culture, and you are from the culture that had the.

 

The powerful and the other culture were powerless or less powerful, as in American slavery, then it is absolutely appropriation. And the blackface minstrels were actually going further and making fun of. So the blackface culture that came from the south in the United States, you know, at the turn of the century and earlier than that, like the time of the Civil War and then into the probably 30s and 40s of the United States was all about using that blackface not to raise up a culture, but to keep it repressed and keep it down.

 

Sorry, I cut you off.

 

[00:18:09] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, thanks.

 

You can always cut me off anytime, and at the same time copy someone with the braids and everything. We as. I don’t want to say we. I’m not white.

 

The discrimination against the people going through, as you said, wearing a veil, sometimes wearing a veil immediately puts a specific discrimination against you. Having your go with African people, different style, the way they’re dressing, immediately discrimination, racism against them when you’re copying that. And of course, nobody will react the same react as they do with other people. Because also the ads on TV, in media, and everywhere, all the time, for the last five, seven years, all the time. The beautiful hair is the silky blonde hair, it’s the hair. It was never curly or textured. The textured hair. The African. It was never even like it was. You don’t see them in normal. In TV and media, like, oh, this is a perfect hair cream for your curls, or this is really good shampoo for your scalp, or whatever. It was always the beautiful blonde, silky hair. And ignoring the discrimination black people get for their hairstyle or for the way they dress, or even people, Muslim people, or even Indian, the way from the side, whatever.

 

If you don’t really understand the history, ignore it, and just say, “Oh, yeah, I want to do it because it’s cool. I think it’s a little bit sad to do it.” And he said, “Use Google, ask people, ask Google.”

 

[00:20:00] Speaker A: Yes. And I will go a little bit further and say even when it’s appropriate, make sure that you’re buying articles of clothing and hair salves and all of those things. Right. So like I said, when I bought the scarf, I made sure I wasn’t just paying some factory in Minnesota, you know, to make the scarf, that the money was actually going through to somebody.

 

Let’s. So Amazon is a marketplace now. It isn’t just everything from Amazon. And so the marketplace that I bought this through, I verified was a Palestinian organization. Because I wanted to make sure that if I bought money to wear something in support of that culture, the money was going to that culture as well. I probably could have bought it outside of Amazon and made sure that it was more than that. And next time I will, because I only just thought of that. But I was like, Amazon’s my go-to, which is terrible, I know, but there we are. But at least I did my research, made sure that the money that was being spent was going to the right culture. So in the right community.

 

So, all that to say, show your support. Right, I’m sorry, yeah.

 

[00:21:06] Speaker B: I want to say the key is for appreciation is respect, permission and get context and honor the culture and understand it and celebrate it also because behind this history, sometimes a lot of pain, a lot of suffering, but people now, they want to celebrate who they became, the culture, the whole nation, the whole race from it. So yeah, yeah, I was one of.

 

[00:21:39] Speaker A: The articles that I read. I’ll just bring this up really quickly, too. It is in, in the United States, here and especially in the southern states, which tend to be a little more racist than some of the Northern states. There’s a divide between liberal and conservative. And not that it doesn’t permeate, but yeah, Blue states tend to be a little more understanding, which is, I live in New York, so we don’t tell children how they have to wear their hair or how they can’t wear their hair.

 

But we’ve had lawsuits in the United States, specifically in Texas, where a young gentleman was being told he had to cut off his dreadlocks, which I think we just call locks now. The article did refer to them as dreadlocks, but he had to cut off his locks or he would be expelled from school because it was an inappropriate hairstyle for school.

 

Well, who’s to say what’s inappropriate when that’s his culture? He was a black man, and he should be allowed. Well, boy. But you know what I’m saying, He’s black culture. He. He was appropriately wearing locks. And so for the school district to tell him he couldn’t, or for a school district to tell a girl that she can’t wear her natural hair, she has to braid or she has to cut it short because, you know, what we perceive as an Afro, natural women’s black hair is inappropriate for school, is inappropriate to tell them that. And so there have been lawsuits. There have been lawsuits in workplaces when a workplace tells a woman that she can’t wear her natural hair, that she has to tame it, or, you know, other terms like that. And so I want to see things change. I want to see, even though it was always inappropriate, it will always be inappropriate for me to wear those styles. I want to see those styles accepted for the cultures that have the right to wear them. Because that’s the opposite effect. Right. So, not if I can’t wear it, nobody can wear it. That’s what I’m hearing in some of these things. No, absolutely not. And so I just think we need to keep all of it in mind and allow cultures to continue with their own cultural history and to bring that forward into their future generations, and yet let it still be inappropriate for me to do it for them or on their behalf or steal that from their culture.

 

[00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I think at the end, it’s just understanding and celebrating and asking permission and just going for it. And also understanding it’s more important. It’s just not like copy and paste, and without getting the whole story behind it.

 

[00:24:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for letting me have this conversation today. I thought it was just a good one for you and me to have. I did have a dream before I fell asleep the other day. I did have, like, thoughts of, like, a really good idea for our next.

 

Our next topic. And I said I should wake up and I should write it down on my phone so I don’t forget or text you. And then I was like, now remember it in the morning. But I didn’t remember it in the morning. And so I will have to see if I can remember that one later voice message. That’s a good idea. That’s a good idea. I was like, it was dark. It was in my room. I was starting to fall asleep. I’m like, now remember it. Never trust that. Never. I remembered that I had an idea, but I didn’t know what the idea was. So maybe that’ll come back and I.

 

[00:24:58] Speaker B: When will I bring you another keffiyeh when I see you at WordCamp Europe.

 

[00:25:02] Speaker A: Oh, I would love that.

 

[00:25:03] Speaker B: Getting closer. So, yeah, I know.

 

[00:25:05] Speaker A: I’ll see you in what, two weeks? I think three weeks. Yeah, three weeks. I will see you there. So very good. Well, thank you, everybody, for listening in. We won’t have an episode the week of Word Camp Europe because we’re both going to be there. But I mean, we’ll have coffee together, but you won’t be with her, with us.

 

[00:25:22] Speaker B: We’ll have a lot of conversation, a lot of coffee, but not a podcast.

 

[00:25:27] Speaker A: Not a podcast. Right. And you better believe that as soon as I see you, I will hug you with a hello, Samah.

 

If you’re going to be at Word Camp here, please stop by and see us.

 

Well, I mean, stop by. I don’t know where we’ll be. I’ll be at the doodle.

 

[00:25:44] Speaker B: You will see me running around, and everyone will see you going around like you.

 

[00:25:48] Speaker A: I know. I’ll be on my scooter. You can find me that way.

 

We’ll see you there. We will have an episode the next two weeks. If you have ideas of what we should talk about, please let us know. Until then, bye, Samah.

 

And bye, everybody else.

 

If you’re interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode or just want to say Hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com See you next week.