Breaking the Burnout Cycle: How to Protect Your Mental Health at Work

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations.

Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with a goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.

Hello Samah.

[00:00:19] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle.

[00:00:21] Speaker A: How are you today?

[00:00:23] Speaker B: Good. I feel like I’m having a bad hair day today. My hair is even. But anyway,, it’s fine if you. I think.

[00:00:31] Speaker A: I. I was going to say your hair looks beautiful today. So there you go.

[00:00:35] Speaker B: You’re so sweet. You do. You always look beautiful. How are you?

[00:00:39] Speaker A: I’m good, I’m good. I’m tired. I’ve been doing a lot. So between two weeks ago, I was at the Press Conference this past weekend, and I was in Buffalo for Color Code.

So, I was traveling quite a bit the last couple of weeks. Buffalo was a one-day trip. I got up early, drove there, and drove home, but it still feels like a lot. I was a speaker there, and so you know, it just takes a lot of mental and physical energy, of course.

So I just feel like I need a vacation, and I know people will be like, “She’s not working, why does she need a vacation?” I’m working more now, trying to find a job and filling in all these things, like creating revenue streams and things like that, and you know, staying relevant and also post status. Of course, I do have a job of post status, so.

So I’m just staying incredibly busy, and part of that is by design because I don’t want people to forget about me and the community.

[00:01:42] Speaker B: Nobody. The community without you is no community. So like always, be you. So.

And how about Europe?

[00:01:51] Speaker A: I’m going, yay.

I have to book my travel today because I haven’t done that yet. So, thank you for sending me the link for the hotel. So I’m going to book my travel today. I’m traveling alone, which makes me a little bit nervous. But I was talking to Patricia, Patricia BT, and I was telling her, she was like I just saw you’re coming. I’m so happy. I said the only thing I’m nervous about is when I get to the airport to get from the airport to the venue. And she said maybe I’ll pick you up. Let keep me posted. And I was like, oh my gosh, it would be like such a relief if there was somebody who was there when I got there, you know. So I think it’s all going to work out, and I’m very happy, and I can’t wait to see you.

[00:02:30] Speaker B: Me too. I’m happy to see you. And the hotel is like 70 meters away from the venue. It is like 30 minutes. So. And the roads in Switzerland are accessible. Everything is fine.

Patricia is awesome, so I’m pretty sure she’s taking. She’s proud of WordCamp.

It’s in her own country, so. Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:53] Speaker A: So I’m excited to be there. What I want to talk about today, though, is the opposite of being excited about things. It’s when we experience burnout because I think at some point in everybody’s career, they experience that. Those feelings of burnout were its.

I don’t even know how to describe burnout, but it’s, it’s a, it’s like a cross between just depression in a way, like work depression, and like a malaise where you just.

Just don’t want to kind of thing because you’ve been working so hard.

And I think sometimes burnout comes with the feeling of not accomplishing as much as you want to as well.

But also it can just be burning the candle at too many ends. I like to break my candle in the middle, burn it at four ends, you know what I mean? Like those kinds of things, like too many ends aren’t. There are only two ends to a candle. Not if you break it in enough pieces so that you can burn even more.

But I think that, I think that with the layoffs that we’ve seen this year, that leaves.

There are two things that happen, right? So people like me who are job searching, trying to create additional revenues, having meetings, all these things, we can burn out from not finding a job, right? Like, I’m not at that point yet because it’s still too fresh for me. But I know people who have been almost a. Without a job, and they’re feeling burned out from looking for a job.

And then there’s the people who didn’t get laid off who are now taking on additional responsibilities because the work that people like me did still has to be done and it gets distributed amongst the people who are still there. And that can lead to burnout within an organization as well.

So I thought it would be a good thing to talk about today. I think, I think women especially, I know we talk about women a lot.

Women especially, because by and large, if you have children at home, and even if you don’t, women are often responsible for more so for child raising and home care on top of a full-time job. And so, because in many homes and among gentlemen, if you’re listening, we don’t mean every home and every man, of course, but traditional and traditional gender roles, I’ll say, oftentimes the home work is not split, is not distributed evenly between the two adults at home. And so oftentimes women will burn out even faster than men will. And I was looking for your thoughts on that.

[00:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah, for me, I was like doing quick, quick, very quick research, and the numbers are a little bit shocking because it’s like 66% of American employees in 20 reported experiencing burnout. Of course, in Australia, it’s like 75%, and in the UK, it’s 51%. So, of course, there are many reasons for the burnout. As you said, it’s like looking for a job even at your company, because sometimes when people leave, you need to do more work. Lack of support for mentorship, as well as imposter syndrome, because of the fear of speaking up. All of those things can lead to burnout. And of course, all of those that are happening in the world, even happening in WordPress, the community, and a lot of companies, are laying off. This can make you more, more stressed. And of course, everything is now more expensive in the world. Like the financial situation, everyone is worried about losing their job. Everyone will take extra time to work, to work and not a lot of people respect this work and life balance.

Funny because I write it for myself as a goal this year, I want to stop working only to work my working hours. I want to stop working on weekends, I want to stop working after my working hours.

It is very difficult because I still have things that need to be finished. But there’s a funny Arabic saying, we say that your life will be finished, and the work will not be. So there is always something to do at work. So just like do only your the time what you need to do and then you get, you do it done. Of course, there are a lot of other reasons. And I know, as you said, women or people, minorities are getting more burned out than others. Like they usually get more workload than other people, or the pressure to prove ourselves. And all of those can add pressure on you. But I agree, women, we usually also don’t go to the doctor, and we don’t share unless we reach a point where we need something to do about it. And some people, it’s really, really, it can be really helpful to speak about it. And that’s why the young generation is really good at expressing their feelings. And let’s say, I don’t want to say the senior citizen is, you and I, but I mean, you know, the young generation, Generation Z from 18 to 24, or the millennials from 35 to 34. Now they are experiencing more burnout. Not because they are really more stressed and worried. No, because there are.

[00:08:33] Speaker A: You’re muted.

[00:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah, they are speaking up more. And also at the same time, I don’t know. That’s why maybe we also have burnout, they want to solve it. And the younger generation or the senior generation, or the senior citizen, we are still learning and working on how to express our feelings.

[00:08:58] Speaker A: I think also I agree with all of that, of course, and I can only, as I’ve said many times before, I can only speak from the American experience, but given our current administration of political administration and the cost of living going up so much because of tariffs and things like that, like right now it’s like $7 to get a dozen eggs, which is ridiculously high, you know. But many people, especially those younger generations, are finding it necessary to have two jobs. And so they work one job, you know, Monday through Friday, and maybe they have another job either evenings or weekends. So they have less time to even recover.

Like have those two days to just do hobbies or lay in bed and watch movies or read a book and those things that people find rejuvenating.

And I think it’s one of those things that you just.

It’s like the hamster wheel never stops, right? Like you just have to keep running, running, running, running, running. And that’s really unfortunate. And it’s not.

It’s not a fair situation.

I mean, I talk about fair all the time, like nothing’s fair, right? Fair is.

What does fair mean? But it’s not just a way for employers to live our lives, right? And some of it is just the way that our society is. For example, the tariffs and things in the US right now make the cost of living higher.

It makes the cost of production higher.

So it’s harder for companies to pay employees more if they suddenly have a higher cost of creating whatever goods or services they’re creating now. That said, I think there’s still quite a margin for companies to be able to perhaps take a little bit less and give the employees more. I follow two gentlemen on TikTok who talk about how to be fair at work. Right. And I was. They both came up one after the other this morning, which was interesting. And they both had situations like people who send their work situations and the screenshots of their WhatsApp and their texts to these gentlemen. And in both cases, it was somebody who was on holiday, and the boss was reaching out to say, I just need you to hop on A meeting or fix these slides for a meeting.

And the person said, Look, I just got off the plane, I’m on holiday. I don’t even have my laptop with me. And in one case, the boss said, Why didn’t you bring your laptop? You’re supposed to have your laptop with you all the time. It’s like, no, I’m on holiday. Holiday is my time, not your time, kind of thing. And it’s like, well, this is going to reflect badly on your performance and your job and blah, blah, blah. And the guy said, That’s okay, I’ll talk to HR and make sure that’s not the case, you know, kind of thing. But it’s unrealistic expectations, and I’m sure that that boss has unrealistic expectations of them as well, which then, you know, filter down to their staff and their employees. But it’s something, we have to do something. So one thing I think is to absolutely stick up for yourself, right? I’m on holiday. I am not for those of us here in the US on vacation. I am not accessible to you while I’m on vacation and while I’m on holiday, and I need that time for rejuvenation.

I, when I had a full-time job, you know how on your phone you can slide over pages and pages and pages. All my work stuff was on a separate screen on like the second page of my phone, so that little notifications and things like that weren’t in my vision. On the weekends, I would have to willingly break my own rules and check and see what was happening at work. And so I became better and better at building those boundaries for myself so that I would, on my weekends, have my weekend to myself.

One of the challenges, though, as you and I both know, is just because you’re not sitting at your desk, just because you’re not on your laptop or checking Slack on your phone, does not mean your brain is not still working on all of these things and trying to solve them. As a matter of fact, this week I had an idea for you, Sama, for our future WordCamps, and we’ll talk about that afterwards because I think it’s a brilliant idea. And you may be like, That’s really dumb, Michelle, but we’ll talk afterwards. But like I, I’m like, I’m not even taking like break from my own work. I’m like, oh, it’s Samah. You could do this, you know.

[00:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it’s. It’s unbelievable. I know, I know the feeling. Sometimes I really tried recently to create a better life balance, but I know, like I was showering today in this morning, and I was thinking, and yes, people here are gonna have a bright party in WordCamp, you know, about thinking about a task. I assigned it to one of my team members, but I trust her; she will finish it. But I was thinking that I could help her, and with this idea and then sometimes said How can I turn it off if there is a button or even before I go to sleep. Like our favorite TikTok, our favorite app.

[00:14:13] Speaker A: Yes.

[00:14:14] Speaker B: Sometimes, teams, I check a couple of emails, and I say, ” Why do I do that to myself. But yeah, I don’t know. I would feel lost if I didn’t have them in my phone.

I don’t know. Maybe, maybe, maybe I need some professional help.

[00:14:31] Speaker A: Maybe we all do.

[00:14:34] Speaker B: Of course, I believe we should take care of our mental health and bear that because I know it’s not really easy to get out of it in Europe or in the Netherlands. I don’t know if it’s the same in the States. Here you’re one and a half years, two years, you’re fully covered by the insurance, your full salary is paid if you need to go through a sickness or even a burnout. And of course, there are the steps of coming out of the burnout. It’s. Sometimes it takes work, you know, it takes energy, it takes work, and usually six months to one year minimum, then you go out of it. And I think in the States you don’t cover the whole time fully paid your salary because also sometimes, which is sad, you need to suck it up and move on because nobody’s going to pay the bill. So.

[00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that for people who are neurodivergent on the ADHD and executive dysfunction part of things, burnout feels even guiltier, like if I cannot motivate myself to do something.

And part of that is because I burn out. Now I’m feeling guilty about that as well. And perhaps other people feel that same way. But, but I know that for neurodiversity it comes with another layer of, you know, of not being able to. Even though you know, it’ll take five minutes to do a job. Sometimes your brain just won’t let you sit down and do it. And then you have this guilt feeling about it, and that adds to the layers of pressure that lead to burnout as well.

[00:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And of course, there’s a lot of, I know, to set clear work-life boundaries.

It is really difficult. I don’t know, I mean you and I, I know we’re really bad at this like we will never work eight hours a day. We will work. I think maybe let’s start working only 14 hours a day. This is our target.

Yes of course. Like to prioritize our mental breaks. Like to stop working after an amount of time I think like 30 minutes or one hour to take five or 10 minutes a break and not to do work.

I have an issue and I think maybe me I’m the most creative. At night after very long day of thinking my brain started to go on a Speedy Gonzalez mood.

So that’s something. And also saying no. I am coming from culture. We don’t say no even if there’s. They’re saying saying I. I love to help but I don’t have the. The capacity, the energy or the time to do it.

I I can say learning to delegate task. It’s the first steps to. To get to ask for help. But it’s okay to say no. And that sometimes especially women or anything just under presented groups saying no. It’s can be so difficult for us because we want to show we are doing good job. Like yeah, we need help.

No, no, no, I don’t like we.

[00:17:50] Speaker A: We have to prove ourselves all the time.

[00:17:51] Speaker B: If someone asks you can you help me with this? Yes, I can help you. And you know the other person and the other 120 tasks. But he’s still 20, does go home, and of course, to talk to someone. I know a lot of companies that are sponsoring or opening for psychologists to help their employees talk, because there are steps to take to avoid burnout much more easily. And also, I know burnout can affect you physically, and you reach a point. There’s no medication for it. Like you cannot take pills to take out burnout from learning and working every day, every step it’s.

It can help. And also to keep an eye, I think, on the early stages. I think.

I think just keep an eye and just all. All the time, check with your doctor or check with someone you know, you trust, your manager, your friends. Ask them if this continuous fatigue results in reduced performance, cannot focus, feeling numb, or detached. I want to make a joke. You and I, we’re having the same. All of them at the same time.

Yeah.

[00:19:11] Speaker A: Why pick one when you can collect them all?

[00:19:14] Speaker B: Exactly. If someone shows any sign, you should seek help.

Don’t be like Michelle and me. We keep going. We keep going until one day we keep going. This is.

Yeah.

[00:19:30] Speaker A: They always say that nobody ever stands over your casket when you’re dead and says Gosh, I wish he had done More.

[00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah, right.

[00:19:39] Speaker A: And on deathbeds, people don’t say one more email.

[00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I think in our cases, someone will come and ask us, whisper to us. I want to ask you about this task. If you know how it is.

There’s a fun video. People like your manager. And I was, I was laughing about it in TikTok, like someone laying down their casket, and the manager came like, about the report. Who’s going to do it? Now, when you’re like, I know people, anybody can do that easily.

[00:20:09] Speaker A: I had a friend, he’s still a friend, but I had a friend who used to say, you never say, no, I’m going to tattoo no across your forehead. I said, the problem with that is I will look in the mirror. It’ll say on. And when somebody says, Can you do? I’ll go, yeah, you’re on.

Instead of saying, no.

[00:20:27] Speaker B: Nice one.

[00:20:30] Speaker A: So, yes, the most important thing is to set your own boundaries and watch out for yourself. But also, supervisors and managers have to not only pay attention to the work that’s being done, they have to pay attention to their employees. They need to make sure that their team.

It is not just your responsibility to get the work done. You are responsible for the humans that work under you, and making sure that you’re not overburdening them and making sure that they’re okay with the understanding that most people will not set those boundaries for themselves because they feel they have something to prove. They’re worried there’ll be the next layoff. They’re worried that they won’t have a job. They’re worried that they won’t get a promotion or a raise. And so they’re always going to say yes to you as a supervisor. It is your job as a team leader, as a supervisor, as a CEO, as whatever your title is, to make sure that you are not overassigning work to the people on your team because you know what’s humanly possible. And if you are giving people more than is humanly possible, it’s your fault to a degree that they are taking on more than they should.

[00:21:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you 100%. And at the end, avoiding it is much easier. And also, we are human beings. It’s just not like an app. You have the app, and it is not working. Then we move on. We just push the app until a limit. They cannot do the job anymore. Avoiding it is so easy.

And at the end it’s okay. It’s just disease. It’s like everyone can get it. There’s no one above it.

Everyone can get it. And people take care of themselves. And as you said, the manager, I totally agree with you. Keep an eye on your staff and your employees. They are not, they’re human beings. They and we are working in a sector that has more burnout than other sectors around the world. So I think that also keep an eye on each other about it too.

[00:22:33] Speaker A: And if you are a supervisor, make sure that your staff are taking their vacations instead of hoping that they’ll take a buyout or they’ll roll those hours over to next year. Make sure to ask them when your next vacation is. Let’s get it on the books to make sure, you know, make sure that it works for everybody. Right. That you’re not.

When I was working in higher education as a registrar, I couldn’t take the first two weeks of school as a vacation anytime because that’s when students are registering, changing their classes, all of those things, which makes perfect sense. So instead let’s say let’s look at your calendar. Let’s make sure that we’re scheduling your. Your vacation is for you to have the time that you deserve and the time that you need, especially when crisis times are happening here. It’s your responsibility, too, to make sure that they’re using that time and not trying to prove themselves to you.

There’s so much that our companies and our supervisors can be doing to thwart the burnout that we might otherwise experience.

[00:23:35] Speaker B: So take care of yourself, everyone.

[00:23:37] Speaker A: Absolutely.

[00:23:38] Speaker B: And always talk to your doctor, Manager. A little bit sneaky. The burnout with being tired. You can’t focus at work.

I think maybe we can, we will put a link and people check out. They can do a simple test online and you can give you what symptoms you have and if you need to go to check with the doctor or to talk with someone professional to check out if those results are accurate and then you can move on to help yourself. Because we need to help ourselves before helping others.

[00:24:09] Speaker A: Oh yeah, absolutely. Put on your own face mask before you help those around you.

[00:24:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:19] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you. Samah. This has been a great conversation. We don’t know what we’re going to talk about next week. We never do. But if you have ideas for us, send them our way and we’ll be happy to add them to our list. Thank you.

[00:24:31] Speaker B: Bye-bye.

[00:24:35] Speaker A: If you’re interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode or just want to say hi, go to underrepresentedintech. Com. See you next week.