Women in Tech: Speak on Expertise, Not Just Identity

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations.

 

Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with the goal of helping people discover new opportunities in WordPress and the tech industry.

 

[00:00:17] Speaker B: Hello Thijs.

 

Hello Thijs.

 

[00:00:21] Speaker A: And why are we starting by saying hello, Samah?

 

[00:00:26] Speaker B: Because I’m a little bit sad. Thijs is my colleague and he’s leaving your company at the end of this week. I think when we share the podcast, he will be into his new adventure in life. Thijs was an amazing person who helped us in production for our podcast, and he did a great job. We’re going to miss him. So that’s why we started. Yeah.

 

[00:00:52] Speaker A: So Thijs, I know you’ll hear it because you process this for us every week. Thank you so much for all the hard work you’ve put into helping us process and produce our podcast, both on YouTube and in audio format. We appreciate all the work you’ve done for us. So thank you for that.

 

[00:01:12] Speaker B: Thank you, Thijs.

 

[00:01:14] Speaker A: Thank you.

 

So this week I brought, we have, we always have a bunch of ideas we’re, you know, popping around, and some of those just stay forever on, on the list, and we don’t get to them because it’s like, ah, if we can’t think of something else, we’ll talk about that. And so those things are still on the list because, today, I just did a quick search. I typed in ‘Twitter underrepresented’ or ‘hashtag underrepresented tech’ just to see what would come up there.

 

One of the things that came up is actually something I hadn’t given much thought to.

 

But when I think about it, it makes a lot of sense, and that is women.

 

We have fought hard, I should say, to be able to be on stages at tech events, to have a voice to share our knowledge, and to show that we know how to do the things that we do just as easily as any man could. Right? So, show me a truly exceptional male developer. I will show you a female developer who can do the job just as well.

 

Are there still more men in tech? Probably yes, of course. But that doesn’t mean that there are only men in tech.

 

However, if you look at some of the topics and the panels that women are still asked to present on, a lot of them are really tending towards the underrepresentation of women in tech, and why women should belong in tech as opposed to their actual knowledge base. So, how to do development, how to do marketing, how to do these things. And so I really thought about that. Like I talk about, I get asked to talk about underrepresentation at events a lot, but that’s because that’s one of our areas of expertise. We have a podcast about that. I don’t have a problem talking about that because we researched that. Well, you do a lot of the research, but I thought I did too sometimes. But we, we talk about that a lot and we live it through this podcast and trying to bring different topics and areas about underrepresentation to people to help everybody do better and understand what women and people of color and other underrepresented groups, lgbtq, etc, go through. Right. And. And we talk about accessible disability and all of those things.

 

What I don’t want to see is only. Are women only being asked to do those things? I’m not being very clear today. I’m sorry, I’m like, it’s Monday morning and I’m garbling my words. But.

 

But women can do more than talk about being women. And that’s. What I really want to say is if you want to invite women to be part of your event, yes, we do realize that sometimes you’re doing that so that you have a more diverse lineup. I applaud a more diverse lineup. It’s wonderful to invite women to speak on your panels. It’s wonderful to invite women to take the stage.

 

But they should be asked to do more than just talk about being women. They should be asked to talk about what their areas of expertise are.

 

What do you think?

 

[00:04:28] Speaker B: First, I totally agree with you. And of course, like, I did a quick research because of course there’s more and more women are continue to have more meaningful contributions to the speaker line and a lot of conferences. Like, we’re talking, of course, about our amazing beloved WordPress ecosystem. But also outside as a whole, total, there’s only 25 to 32% until now.

 

But of course there’s. There are a lot of numbers, like 70 of the women who are participating in a lot of I T conferences, they are the only ones who are in those panels. Like, she’s the only woman on that stage. And as you said, a lot of conversations or most of the talks are related to DEI, the diversity, equity, and inclusion.

 

There are, of course there is a lot of things about technology, about engineering or career development, or leadership, but still, like, not a lot of talks about AI or let’s say other, the data, the science.

 

Most of them really focus most of their talks on diversity advocacy, career growth, or how to. To help with the diversity.

 

Yes, I think we should work. We are still working as a whole, say the humanity, the human race, to accept more women as if not only in the IT conferences, but also as leaders. The prime ministers are, are more people in the parliament, or in the Dutch, we call that Advai de Kammer. And then that is, I believe it’s.

 

I don’t know, five years ago. I believe we’re almost there. But no, no, I think there’s still a way we’re still working. Yeah, but I agree, like there are a lot of things we can do. Additionally, the numbers are still somewhat shocking, as are we. I’m happy with the 25 to 32%. I’m pretty sure 10 years ago, it was much worse. But I think it’s. We’re still not there yet because it’s still when we, when we look for most of the time, women, they’re invited to talk about diversity or career growth or even leadership. And most of the time, the focus is not really on what they can add.

 

Of course, those conversations are really important, but I also want to see more of what they are really doing in their career. Of course, there are women sharing it. There are a lot of women to talk to, but I noticed all of them. It’s not like the majority, let’s say it’s still a small number and small.

 

[00:07:15] Speaker A: So yeah, I will say, I know I do recognize that the majority of our listeners come through the WordPress channels because that’s, you know, where we are.

 

And I will say that I think that WordPress does a pretty good job of evaluating talks by the talk title, not necessarily by whether or not the person presenting is male or female, those kinds of things. And so I do think WordPress does a good job. I was on an AI panel earlier this year in Manila, and the panel was, I think, there were four of us moderated by Taco, our friend Taco. And there were two men and two women, or three men and two women. So it really was good, it was good to have women on the panel. And it wasn’t talking about dei, for example.

 

I think that there are plenty of events that are specifically for women that really do highlight the things that we do because we recognize that within ourselves, for example, womentech.net, which is women, tech, career, and talent, and all of these things.

 

I’ve presented at their global event earlier this year.

 

I’ve been invited to be A keynote. This Wednesday, I’m giving a keynote talk at 11:10 in the morning, which is an interesting time. 11:10 in the morning, all about you unleashing the power of personal branding, which really does talk about how we people in general, not just women, but this is specifically a women’s event. How can we use our personal branding to grow within our companies or to create a career, freelancing, or however we want to do it, whether we’re doing our own startups, things like that, but really, how we use our own personal branding. And so that’s not a talk about being a woman, that’s a talk about marketing and how you market yourself. And so I think that the events that are specifically for women tend not to be about how we can do DEI better because we’re already there. So we are talking about those topics that really make sense.

 

It’s interesting. I can’t recall who it was, so if you’re listening and it was you, please identify yourself. But I did hear somebody earlier this year talk about the fact that they had attended a tech event, and in the afternoon, they had divided out women and men into two different areas. And I can’t remember what the women’s, what the men’s, you know, workshop was, but the women’s workshop was hair and makeup and how to dress professionally.

 

And I, I think my jaw hit the desk. It was just like, what?

 

Okay, first of all, who cares what you look like should have no bearing on your ability to do your job and your knowledge base.

 

Number two, if you’re already at a conference, you’ve already grown enough in your career to go to a conference on your own, you know, in your area.

 

Haven’t you already gone past the point where you need tips on how to do like, what color blush and lipstick to wear, and what your clothes should look like? I was dumbfounded that in today’s day and age, we are still teaching women how to do their hair and makeup to be professional.

 

It’s ridiculous.

 

[00:10:40] Speaker B: Maybe today I need it, maybe both of us with our hair, and we don’t put on makeup. But yeah, I found it crazy because we are also talking about those events or the young generation. I think you and I we reached a level. We also, this is who we are. And I believe, sometimes, I believe your brain, your personality, what’s in your heart, also reflects on your face. Also, we don’t have to all look perfect like those filters because everyone uses them online, these filters are to make your skills better and you like, and not all of us have to be 0 or 2 or 4 or size 4. We come in different shapes, different ethnicities, and different skin. This, this is not should be really the main focus but that is also sometimes like this is how still the people see the majority of humanity see the women, because the first thing they look at you is like your hair, your makeup, how what is you look like if you’re what is your shape and also if you dress. I don’t think a man will care if he has zits on his face. I don’t think he will care if his hair is a little bit like getting bald.

 

Some men care, but the majority 95% they don’t care, and as long as they like, I’m fine, I’m wearing clean clothes. That’s fine. I’ll go, I’ll show up. For us, it’s always that we, we’ve been taught to care, and also, that’s still shocking that we still offer this workshop. I don’t know if I also want to know what this is because I’m really bad at makeup. I would love to go to other decisions, but she wouldn’t want to do it, like let somehow put someone else’s name, you know, like, because I will decide to, but this is words, yeah.

 

[00:12:29] Speaker A: I want to say it’s and it’s not bad to want to care about your appearance. So, women, if you want to wear makeup, wear makeup. If you want to do your hair, do your hair. If you care about your clothes, care about your clothes. I don’t, I, I have nothing to say about that. Be who you are.

 

But why are we being in that instance, why were women being forced into this superficial when men were in in a side of things that were more deeply tech, and that’s, you know, fine. Have a session where if women want to attend it that’s great, but don’t be forced to attend. I could care that I think this year I have worn makeup once. No, let me take that back. Did I wear makeup this year? I don’t think I’ve worn makeup at all this year. Not once.

 

I think last year I wore makeup twice.

 

[00:13:17] Speaker B: Buying mini size. Do you know why? Because I forget they exist, and I have them like after one another, they’re like Oh, I have it more than one year. I think it’s drawing, let’s throw it away.

 

[00:13:28] Speaker A: And I, I like when women want to wear makeup and wear makeup. I just couldn’t be bothered. My brand of ADHD neurospiciness is that I don’t like things on my Face. And so I don’t like to put on foundation, I don’t like lipstick, I don’t like eyeshadow. Things like that bother me. Since you know, sensory-wise, it’s not that I eschew it. And I think that women shouldn’t do it. It’s just not something that I care about.

 

[00:13:53] Speaker B: And so for me, it’s fun.

 

[00:13:54] Speaker A: Not a big deal.

 

[00:13:56] Speaker B: Sorry to interrupt. You know what’s going to be fun?

 

[00:13:58] Speaker A: It will.

 

[00:13:59] Speaker B: If we let the men attend this workshop at the front.

 

Let them wear high heels, let them put on makeup, and let them run the whole day with it.

 

[00:14:08] Speaker A: There you go.

 

[00:14:09] Speaker B: And then we can just like, how? How would you feel about it? Like, we would love to know.

 

[00:14:13] Speaker A: We’re not exactly.

 

[00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

 

[00:14:15] Speaker A: I just.

 

Separating anything out by gender at a tech event or any event that is not specifically about that, I think, is.

 

Does a disservice to everybody who’s in attendance. So were women in the, in this situation, women were denied the ability to learn what the men were learning, but also the men were denied the ability to hear women contribute to that topic because we contribute to those topics, I think.

 

You know, I was reading another, another post I sent to you.

 

Actually, I didn’t send this to you. This was actually, I saw something that Jill Binder had put on Twitter in 2020 about Q&As at the end of, you know, giving a talk, and how it can feel very overwhelming to have Q&As. Like, you feel like you’re on the spot sometimes, right? So somebody. So the first time I ever gave a tech talk, it was the only time I’ve ever had a little bit of imposter syndrome. Because I always feel like, hey, if I’m going to pitch a talk, I belong. But this was the first time. So I was like, Do I belong? I hope so. I think I know what I’m talking about. But I was terrified of the Q and A because I was so afraid people were going to go, That’s not right. Where did you get that idea from? Kind of thing. Even though I had all of the information on the slides, I still had that in the back of my head, going, what if somebody’s like, this was so stupid, you know, kind of thing.

 

But I think it can also be terrifying to stand up and ask a question in the Q and A. And so I was thinking about that from that perspective. And as a woman in tech, do I, you know, I’ve never been afraid to approach the microphone and ask a question. You’ve all if you’ve seen any see me at any WordCamp, you know that I will ask Matt Mullenweg a question because somebody’s got to prime the pump. It may as well be me, but. And I have no problem asking questions and things like that. But as somebody on the stage, it is also equally terrifying when nobody wants to ask a question, and you start to doubt yourself. Like, did I? Was I that good that nobody? I explained it so well. Nobody has a question, which is never the case. Right. There are always things you can ask, or was I confusing, or was I boring? And all of those things. And it honestly, it’s usually just that people are terrified to get up and ask a question at the end.

 

I don’t know how I saunter down that pathway in this. But I guess the bottom line is I just want people who are putting together tech events to consider inviting women to speak on topics that you would ask men to speak on as well. Don’t pigeonhole us into what it is like to be a woman in tech? What is it like to be a woman doing this role or that role? How about showing us how you do that role?

 

Share your expertise without necessarily having to put a gender bias on it. Because when it comes down to it, knowledge is knowledge, regardless of who it comes from.

 

Women should be speaking on those topics. Women should have a place on the stage. Underrepresented folks in general should have a place on the stage.

 

When I speak, I am. I use a mobility device. Every stage I’m on now is accommodated so that as somebody who’s in a wheelchair, I can access the stage. Hasn’t always been that way.

 

Those things weren’t always taken into consideration before I became this huge shout about it kind of person.

 

And I’m happy that the events that I’ve attended and been able to shout about have made it easier for other people who have similar disabilities to be able to take a stage and access those kinds of things. And so I just ask that people think about the inclusion aspect of.

 

Of your topics, because if you only ever have the same type of people presenting on those topics, you’re not getting the full picture and all of the perspectives that make an event a rich and enriching event.

 

[00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And everything you said, I agree. And I don’t have a lot to add on. It’s also just like we’re almost there. I don’t want to say it like we are almost to the reach of that very beautiful Aflona, like an amazing world that.

 

That we are.

 

We don’t talk about those things anymore because we’re already there I but we still need to do more work, especially speaker line, as you said earlier, WordPress is doing an amazing job.

 

[00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

 

[00:18:49] Speaker B: And I wish the other IT conferences would do the same. Still the numbers are we need to work on because I believe there’s a lot of amazing women or who identify themselves as a woman who can be on the stage and present a good technical talk instead only just to focus on the things we said like we we should all the time that we should cover.

 

I don’t want, honestly, even me personally, I don’t want to hear any talk about leadership or how we grow my career as a woman. I want to talk about new technical topics, or I want to know a topic I want to see women also, someone to present, or to have these amazing things to share. I’m not interested, to be honest, in whether there’s any leadership or career growth. Come on. We used to see it in our 20s. You know, we’d like we have the hope. Okay, she did it. All of us can do it. You know, like this was the mindset.

 

[00:19:43] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I’ll end with this. On October 8th, user shxpir. I don’t know how to pronounce that. Shxpir On Twitter X posted this: let’s talk about sexism and tech and VC venture capitalism.

 

Not the loud kind, but the subtle kind that slips quietly into rooms with lanyards and pitch decks. I met this absolute genius of an A1 stylus. Sharpe instantly got what we’re building at One Mage, like Image AI. She understood it faster than most guys in the room. Then she introduces me to a guy in the VC world, and boom. Instant secondhand sexism. Because of course, if a woman’s making the intro, it can’t be a serious tech company, right?

 

He actually asks if women even need more than one lipstick. Meanwhile, we’re rebuilding how physical product design works, helping brands create, test, and launch faster with digital twins. Tech loves to talk about inclusion, just not the people it’s about.

 

Here’s to the women who see the future before everyone else. Building, coding, leading, and carrying this industry on their backs. They’re the real geniuses of tech. And yes, they look hot while doing it. I love women. Xoxo. I thought that was brilliant. And she does.

 

I can’t remember the title of this.

 

I’ll try to find it, but she has the title of this one painting that she includes.

 

[00:21:08] Speaker B: I love it. I don’t know the name of it.

 

[00:21:10] Speaker A: I’m about to upload it into ChatGPT and ask because I know it’s a famous one. It’s a beheading.

 

What is the title of this painting?

 

It’s going to tell me in a moment.

 

It’s working. It’s working, but it’s brilliant. Right. So like, why? Oh, it’s called Judith Slaying Holofernes by Artemisia Gentileski.

 

Created somewhere between 1614 and 1620, oil on canvas, the painting depicts a dramatic biblical scene from the Book of Judith, where Judith, aided by her maidservant, beheads the Assyrian general Holofernes to save her people.

 

This version is renowned for its intense realism, dynamic composition, and powerful betrayal of female strength and agency, themes often discussed in the context of the artist’s own life and the broader baroque movement. So we will include a link to this tweet so that you can see that image as well. It was. It’s perfect. I loved it. But those kinds of sentiments. Women need to talk more about what happens to them. In tech spaces, we talk about it all the time. Right. I’ve shared all kinds of things that I’ve seen, and you have as well. I’ve shared things where people like right, that time I got that anonymous message through my thing telling me how I need to lose weight and how, you know, I need to be more serious. Don’t police other people’s bodies. Don’t police other people’s genders. Let’s just listen to people for the knowledge that they have, not ask what shade their lipstick is. And I mean woman to woman in the restroom. Hey, what lipstick is that? Perfect. On stage, introducing somebody to a VC capitalist. Any of that. There’s no place for that talk. Let’s talk about what we know, and let’s share our knowledge in a way that shows how powerful we are.

 

[00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And yes, we need more than one lipstick. Why? Because we want to.

 

[00:23:03] Speaker A: That’s right. Or in my case, just. Just Chapstick is fine.

 

[00:23:07] Speaker B: Just like exactly. Whatever you want. Like it’s.

 

It should not be the. The focus of any conversation with any woman. Like, what is your lipstick? It’s maybe with your female friends it looks nice on you, but it’s never. And it’s. Yeah. And we will include the. The tweet and the ex post about it. Oh my God, I’m so old. The tweet.

 

[00:23:31] Speaker A: I know. I say it too.

 

[00:23:33] Speaker B: And damage. And then it’s nice people also to see it because it’s a really powerful image of me. I mean, I was like, damn, that’s.

 

[00:23:41] Speaker A: Good one for sure.

 

All right, everybody, thanks so much for hanging in there with us. And we’d love to hear your thoughts on not only this topic, but other topics and topics that you wish that we would cover in the future, so that we don’t wake up on Monday morning and say, What are we going to talk about this week? So please share with us things that are important to you so that we can talk about them in the future.

 

[00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah.

 

[00:24:02] Speaker A: And thanks again, Thijs, for all of your help.

 

[00:24:04] Speaker B: Thank you, Thijs. We love you. We miss you.

 

[00:24:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. All right, Samah, we’ll talk later. Thank you.

 

[00:24:11] Speaker B: Bye.

 

[00:24:13] Speaker A: If you’re interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just want to say Hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. See you next week.