Building an Equitable Future with Technology

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations.

 

Underrepresented in Tech is a free database.

 

[00:00:10] Speaker B: With a goal of helping people find.

 

[00:00:12] Speaker A: New opportunities in WordPress and tech.

 

Hello, Samah.

 

[00:00:20] Speaker C: Hello, Michelle.

 

[00:00:22] Speaker B: It’s so good to see you.

 

[00:00:24] Speaker C: It’s so good to see you in.

 

[00:00:26] Speaker B: Less than a week.

 

Yes, we’re saying the same thing. I will be seeing you in person in Portland, Oregon. I’m very excited about WordCamp US and even more excited that one of the keynote speakers is here with us in the virtual room today.

 

Welcome, Amy Sample Ward. Amy, how are you?

 

[00:00:45] Speaker C: Good.

 

[00:00:45] Speaker D: I felt like I needed to do jazz hands to meet your singing energy.

 

[00:00:49] Speaker B: Feel free to sing anytime.

 

[00:00:52] Speaker D: I know that I will, but I can bring jazz hands for you anytime.

 

[00:00:55] Speaker B: You can Jazz hands all you’d like. Actually. Jazz hands are a way to say to clap and to do applause in sign language. Yeah. Which is so cool. American Sign Language. I love that too.

 

So welcome. Amy is the CEO of NTEN  and one of the keynote speakers for WordCamp US 2025. And it’s really an honor and a pleasure to have you here today. So thank you for joining us.

 

[00:01:20] Speaker D: Thank you. And I also get to call this beautiful Clackamas land, known as Portland, home.

 

[00:01:26] Speaker E: So.

 

[00:01:26] Speaker D: So welcome in a week to my home.

 

[00:01:30] Speaker B: Thank you. It’s exciting to be able to be there and to be able to talk to somebody who knows the lay of the land around there, too. So it’ll be really cool.

 

[00:01:36] Speaker D: Yeah. Do you need any tips? I got you.

 

[00:01:39] Speaker B: So we’ve done our research, but I would love for you, in your words, to tell us what NTEN is and what NTEN does for the community?

 

[00:01:48] Speaker D: Sure.

 

NTEN is a nonprofit. I’ll start there because as an intermediary sometimes that’s not clear, but NTEN actually was formed by the community. There was not a person that woke up one day and decided like what the world needs is a nonprofit that does xyz.

 

No, there were hundreds and hundreds of community members from around the world who were trying to self organize and be able to share resources with each other and help each other and just rising tide lifts all boats approach and realized, at least with the 90s tech that was available to them, that was a lot of work to organize a community, you know, with just an email listserv and whatever else you might have.

 

And so at one of their in person gatherings, they really did take a vote. Should we make an organization? And the vote outcome clearly was, yes, I was not there.

 

But the community that was there, many of them still, 25 years later, are actually active in the community today, which is, I think, a huge gift and really incredible.

 

So NTEN was formed in 2000. From that vote, essentially, and then the hard work of some of the original staff that put all the administrative pieces together.

 

But our mission has really always been the same and that’s to help missions and movements actually be successful, actually change the world through strategic and equitable technology.

 

We don’t recommend products, we don’t teach people about products, and we don’t help you choose a product. Because what we have found through 25 years of research, but also through 25 years and more of our own practice, is that it isn’t really about ultimately which CRM you choose. If none of your staff know how to use it, if you didn’t get consent, keep any of that data. If you don’t know what you’re doing with the database.

 

[00:03:50] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:03:51] Speaker D: It’s all those other decisions and questions that often don’t have only one right answer.

 

[00:04:00] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:04:01] Speaker D: It’s what’s best for your community, what’s best for your staff needs. And navigating all of those continuous conversations around technology for every single staff person.

 

So that’s what we are here for. And we have programs kind of across the spectrum of what an individual or an organization might be looking for from online groups where you could just ask other folks, you know, hey, what are you doing?

 

Share your own expertise in person groups. But also myriad online courses, online professional certificates, including there’s one for open source and nonprofits that will be open in.

 

Well, now I don’t. Time is a flat circle. I don’t know.

 

Whenever you’re listening, eventually.

 

But the course faculty are already working on their courses, so that one will be available too.

 

But we also have totally free open tools that we hope are really transformative for organizations like Tech Accelerate, which is an assessment tool to help you identify where you have risk areas.

 

Our equity guide for nonprofit technology that looks at whether you’re using it, adopting technology, or you’re building it for a social impact context, or you’re investing in it.

 

How could you do that in a way that serves a path towards an equitable world?

 

[00:05:26] Speaker B: I love that. So you said early, early 90s, into the 90s, early, and then 2000. Does that mean that the first like online space was MySpace, or did you not use MySpace? Just making a joke.

 

[00:05:40] Speaker D: I was a child in the 90s, so I was not part of the intern community at that time. But I believe there was maybe a Yahoo listserv at one point. And then Beth is gonna. Beth is gonna somehow hear this and check my. My facts, if I can remember.

 

But I don’t think that there was a like, you know, my Facebook group.

 

[00:06:10] Speaker B: I would get into.

 

[00:06:12] Speaker D: Exactly.

 

[00:06:12] Speaker C: Yeah.

 

[00:06:13] Speaker D: And you know, it was fairly technical folks. So I do. We can go look at the Wayback Machine and see what the website was.

 

[00:06:22] Speaker B: You also have online meetups that have happened and regional meetups as well. I’ve participated in some in Western New York here. And I love that. Not only is it about the physical technology and the. What’s the word? I want the like the software and things like that. But there’s an educational component to what happens at Edge as well.

 

[00:06:44] Speaker D: Totally. Because I think technology was created by people, it can’t be that complex.

 

It’s all the other pieces that are complex, and that’s where we really spend our time. Trying to make sure folks not only have the skills to have technology-related conversations and make decisions about technology, but also the confidence. Because all of the people in our community, whether they’re working in nonprofit organizations directly or they’re, you know, in a foundation or a technology provider, you know, but, but kind of facing the nonprofit sector have been told for decades and decades that we are not smart enough to know about technology, that we are not technologists.

 

[00:07:28] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:07:29] Speaker D: That we should not look behind that curtain because we do not know we are. We are not capable. And that’s furthest from the truth.

 

[00:07:39] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:07:39] Speaker D: We are closest to our mission. So we are absolutely the experts on how technology should ever be adopted there.

 

And we are not the ones that benefit when we believe that narrative that we are not technologists, even though many of us are.

 

And so we really want to not just build up skills but build up that confidence to kind of counter that narrative. That is so strong.

 

I love that.

 

[00:08:09] Speaker C: Honestly. I always do research, and I really admire you and also the publications and the thought leadership I know from online.

 

I haven’t read the book yet, but it’s on my to-read list for sure. You’ve. You co-authorized the take that comes next and the social change anytime, everywhere.

 

What inspired these works? What.

 

What inspired you to do the. Those. The. The. The core writing and. And what. How do they reflect? They reflect your vision and take on social change.

 

[00:08:51] Speaker D: Yeah, good question.

 

Social change, Anytime Everywhere, was again because Time is totally a scam, apparently published in 2013.

 

Will you can fact check reality later. I guess that was a long time ago with my good friend Allison Capen. And we, at that time in 2013, you know, technology really felt, especially social technologies, like they were dictating how nonprofit organizations or, you know, small community organizations or community groups could and should use the Internet instead of us telling the Internet how we want to use it.

 

[00:09:34] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:09:35] Speaker D: And so a big piece of writing that book together with Allison was putting in practical examples of how folks are bending the tools to what they want for their mission, what works for their campaigns, how to work kind of cross channel, which was still very, very new for organizations at that time, to not just think everything could be on Facebook or everything could be on their website or that think that people move around the Internet even if they’re still kind of interacting with your work or your mission area.

 

And we were really excited to get the book out there and even tried to design it insofar as we were able to bend the publishing world so that there were pieces of the book that felt like, you know, you were online. Just the way it was displayed.

 

Fast forward some strange amount of time that is probably nine or 10 years. And Afua, Bruce, and I wrote the Tech that Comes Next. And it’s a very different book. It’s not necessarily looking at practical examples. I think both Afua and I have spent nearly 20 years of our careers being folks who could have that practical example. And we want to be approachable. But we both really felt like it. If we’re going to spend the time to write all these words into these long sentences that make another book, what we want that book to be is kind of a declaration that it doesn’t have to be this way, that it can be different, and that we’re not giving an answer. Because if there was an answer, y’all, like, the world would be so much better already. It isn’t about having an answer. It’s about the hard, intentional work every single day of seeking that answer together collaboratively. That’s how we make it better.

 

[00:11:35] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:11:36] Speaker D: And so we wanted to write a book, really, from the place of all the parts of, you know, of meetings where the meeting ended. And we never got to say that piece like that is what is in this book.

 

[00:11:49] Speaker E: Right?

 

[00:11:50] Speaker D: So it includes the things we think have to be valued if people want to actually commit to this path.

 

The questions that have to be asked, not necessarily the answers to them, and the places where additional resources are needed that don’t really exist, at least in an accessible way to a lot of people, like a rest space to just dream up other ideas that don’t have to be put into an MVP and sold.

 

[00:12:23] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:12:24] Speaker D: What are these other places that create generative, emergent, exciting places of hope? Places that let us even get up and do that hard work again another day.

 

[00:12:36] Speaker C: Yeah.

 

[00:12:37] Speaker B: Traditionally underrepresented groups are also traditionally underserved groups when it comes to technology. And we see this gap between access to technology from the haves and the have-nots, if you will.

 

And I see that being addressed in that book for sure.

 

[00:12:53] Speaker D: And it looks like you’re going to.

 

[00:12:54] Speaker B: Address that also a little bit in your keynote. So could you tell us a little bit? I mean, you don’t. It doesn’t have to give away the farm because people will want to come and see it. But can you tease a little bit about what we’ll learn during your talk?

 

[00:13:08] Speaker D: Yeah. I really love talking to groups where folks kind of COVID a few different sides of technology conversations.

 

[00:13:19] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:13:19] Speaker D: Users, but also builders, but also folks making decisions about which thing we might buy and what goes into putting some money behind something, or even not money, but our time or our resources.

 

So I’m really looking forward to WordCamp for that same reason, because it’s people on every side of every conversation in the room. And so I want to hopefully use that time to talk about the book, but specifically two parts of the book, the values and what it means to apply those values in this context.

 

So that. Because I really don’t think we can get anywhere if we don’t start with talking about values, otherwise we’re going to talk about them later and realize that they were never aligned and we didn’t agree and we built something sideways.

 

[00:14:08] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:14:08] Speaker D: Like half of the Internet. So I want to start there and talk about it first, and talk about it in a way that hopefully folks go into sessions the whole rest of WordCamp saying, yeah, but if we think about this question, right? I don’t need people to say Amy brought it up. I just want folks to keep asking those questions. So that’s one part. And then share a couple of examples of where we’ve seen interesting attempts at this, at this approach, and hopefully save a lot of time for questions because I’m sure there will be folks in the room from various parts of multiple sectors who want to ask questions. And I want to have a discussion too.

 

[00:14:51] Speaker B: I love that.

 

[00:14:52] Speaker C: Yeah.

 

You know, there’s a lot of emerging trends now like, such as, like a lot of things with AI, AI inside the AI tools, digital inclusion or capacity building.

 

Which one of those excites you the most for the future of nonprofit technology? Would you think that one of them will really help more people know about it, or encourage people to ask the question, or even talk about it, or just to? 

 

To. To be more involved in it.

 

[00:15:31] Speaker D: Yeah. I think I appreciate you pulling different pieces from NTEN ‘s work. And it is hard when you just casually drop all of those terms into one sentence to be like, Oh, of course, Anton does all of that.

 

But I think honestly, I’m most fueled by digital inclusion, digital equity work, because, I mean, just like none of us are free until all of us are free.

 

We are not really all online until all of us are online.

 

And that’s not to say I want to force everybody to have, like, Internet. I would love that. Everyone could have Internet. That already isn’t what we have.

 

[00:16:15] Speaker E: Right?

 

[00:16:15] Speaker D: Yeah.

 

But when I think about digital inclusion and digital equity, I think about everyone having the skills to navigate the very treacherous waters that are the online world, that everyone knows how to stay safe.

 

And when we are closer to a world where more of us are online, with confidence and skills, we also can build towards a world where that Internet is safe, that Internet is trusted. We maintain our sovereignty online.

 

[00:16:54] Speaker E: Right.

 

[00:16:54] Speaker D: We are accountable to each other.

 

But I also don’t think we can meaningfully create that world while so many people, millions of people, don’t even have online access. And so, you know, we would only be building it again within a smaller, within a certain group, which isn’t the point. So I do think for me, the digital equity work is the foundation that enables any other work to happen.

 

[00:17:26] Speaker B: My final question is two-part. Okay, so the first part is, what is something that you think each one of us who’s listening to this podcast today? One small thing that we can do and focus on to start to make things better. And then the other is, what can we each do to think about NTEN, and how can we help NTEN?

 

[00:17:49] Speaker D: Such good questions. Okay, One thing every person can do to help build a more equitable world through with technology, I would say, is whatever device you have, whether you have a computer or you have a tablet or you have a smartphone, or if you have all three for some horrible reason, you’re surrounded by technology Schedule a half hour doesn’t have to be a ton of time, but this week, promise me this week, and you are going to go through every security setting, you’re going to know why your settings are either turned on or turned off.

 

Because part of the damage that you might feel later is from your own lack of knowledge of what your settings are. And I’m not going to tell you exactly what every setting needs to be, but I do think that we can’t, again, advocate for change if we don’t really understand the impacts and the reality of today. So that is my request, slash, invitation, slash pleading hope that all of you will go through all of your security settings and really make sure that they are the way that you thought they were and that they’re working the way you want them to work.

 

And as far as NTEN, well, if you’re listening to this, you’re already in. There’s no secret handshake, like come be part of the NTEN  community.

 

Everyone is welcome.

 

And if you’re looking for community, like, oh my gosh, we have it. Like Michelle said, there are in-person meetups every month in various regions, but there are tons of online groups. And those online groups, yes, have a discussion forum, but they also have monthly calls. You want to talk about data? Oh my gosh. Stacy and the data group will nerd out all day on all kinds of data. You want to talk about technology decisions? You’re colleague just said you want a ticketing system, and you’re like, Oh my God, why go to the tech decision makers call. But we also have affinity groups for bipoc professionals, LGBTQIA+, you know, various groups. You are welcome. Your invitation must have been lost in the mail, so please just show up.

 

But I think like just as the NTEN  community was formed by 500 plus people trying to share their resources and lessons with each other, that is still the case. When I say like you’re welcome to the community, I also mean, you know, speak at the conference, write a blog post. Like, share whatever experience you have is enough. And we love to all learn from it together and have you be able to learn from other folks. So please know that the end-to-end community is the space for that. And I can’t wait to see you.

 

[00:20:44] Speaker B: I’m very much looking forward to meeting you next week. I will be coming up and saying hello in person for sure.

 

[00:20:49] Speaker C: Yay.

 

[00:20:49] Speaker D: I can’t wait. I’m a hugger, so I invite Michelle.

 

[00:20:52] Speaker C: A big hug. Okay, I will also come by and see you, too, because definitely. Yeah, it will be amazing to see you in person. And also, I’m a huggy person, so that’s perfect. All of us huggy people, thank you.

 

[00:21:09] Speaker B: So much for joining us today. I know we have limited time; my schedule is crazy. We’re all trying to finish everything up before we get on a plane and head towards your hometown, thank you so.

 

[00:21:18] Speaker D: Much for having me. I really appreciate it.

 

[00:21:20] Speaker B: You have an open invitation, so if you ever have anything you’d like to share on 10, please reach out to us because we would love to have you back. So thank you for being here.

 

[00:21:28] Speaker E: Great.

 

[00:21:28] Speaker D: Well, now I will for sure.

 

[00:21:30] Speaker B: Excellent.

 

[00:21:30] Speaker C: Awesome.

 

[00:21:31] Speaker B: Okay, we have no episode next week because we will be at WordCamp US. But we’ll see you and everybody else in two weeks in September, the next episode of Underrepresented in Tech. See you then.

 

[00:21:42] Speaker C: See you. Bye. Bye.

 

[00:21:44] Speaker A: If you’re interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just want to say hi, go to underrepresented in tech dot com. See you next week.