Burnout, Boundaries, and Balance: A Real Talk on Rest, Work, and Wellness

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations.

 

Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with a goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.

 

Hello, Samah.

 

[00:00:19] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle.

 

[00:00:21] Speaker A: I feel like it’s been so long since I sent that to you.

 

[00:00:27] Speaker B: I feel like it was 1492 years ago, you know, like this.

 

[00:00:36] Speaker A: I wondered how long that number was going to get as you started to say it. 1492 years ago. Okay, so it hasn’t really been that over a thousand years, but.

 

But it really does speak to what we want to talk about today because we, you and I, had a lovely catch-up last week. Just not recording, nothing like that, just kind of catching up. Although we see each other only a few times a year in different places and we do record together, we don’t often get to just sit and chat like the best friends we are.

 

[00:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Nope.

 

[00:01:07] Speaker A: So that was nice. I’m so glad you got on my calendar. And we talked about a few things, namely the fact that we need to get back on track with Recording Weekly.

 

And this summer was very difficult for a few reasons. Number one, we travel a lot in our business, you and I.

 

[00:01:25] Speaker B: And we.

 

[00:01:25] Speaker A: Both were at all three of the major flagship events for WordPress. This year, I was also traveling to the press conference. And I was at WordCamp Montclair in New Jersey. And then I was recently in Amsterdam near you. And then all of the things. And I’m heading off to Canada in two weeks. And then in November, I’ll be in New York City. And so we do travel a lot. And I know you travel outside of those things also. So this last year, I think you’ve been to Damascus, you’ve been to Congo. 

 

[00:02:00] Speaker B: Also United States, visiting my brother, Morocco.

 

Look, I’m really happy that I traveled a lot, but I felt, you know, I felt so tired, and as you said, like, I just want to have a chat with you. And while you’re in Amsterdam, I get sick and I could not, I could not be there. So that was not pleasant, getting sick. And also like I was like, oh, my God, not now, not at this time, not this week. Why?

 

[00:02:35] Speaker A: And then I was violently ill in Amsterdam as well.

 

So much so, I had terrible food poisoning. I ended up having to have a doctor come to the hotel and prescribe antibiotics, which is the only thing that made it even possible for me to fly home a few Days later.

 

So all of that to say, not only do we travel a lot, but I have just been exhausted lately and not necessarily burned out on work itself, but just burned out, I think, a little bit. And it’s so scary to say those words out loud when you have a job because they’re like a red flag or a warning goes off. Like in your house, when the smoke detector goes off and you’re not cooking bacon or something, and you’re like, wait a minute. Why is the smoke detector going off? I didn’t burn the foo,d kind of thing. And so it feels like this whole alert system goes off when somebody hears that you’re burning out.

 

But you can continue to work and then do other things for yourself without becoming completely jobless and without further inconveniencing your life, ruining your income, things like that, to help recover a little bit. And one of the things that you and I did was we’re not recording this week because I don’t feel well. Or we’re not recording this week because I’m traveling, or we’re not recording this week because I just can’t get my ass out of bed.

 

And I wanted to say, you know, I like you, and I. When we met on Friday, I came with guilty feelings that some of those I couldn’t record were me ,not just not being up to snuff, and also, like, I was like, I don’t want you to leave me. I was like, you’re like, oh, let’s get a. Let me get on your calendar. I’m like, she’s gonna tell me she can’t record anymore. I’m so glad that wasn’t the case. But.

 

But part of it is just that, you know, that mea culpa and say, I have not been who I need to be to move this forward.

 

I want to continue to do this with you. What’s a frequency that makes sense for you? And I promise to be there if we divvy up the work in such a way that I can continue to show up. And you’re happy with the work that you’re doing as well. And I’m so glad that we want to continue to do this weekly with the understanding that there will be weeks when we say, I’m out of town and I’m not feeling well and giving each other the freedom to say, I just can’t do this week without any judgment or repercussions.

 

[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I already said it. This is one of the things during my working week I look forward to, just the Recording, and I feel like it’s. We need, like, you know, there’s a task you need to do, but this one, I look forward to doing it. You know, it makes me happy, makes me like I’m, I’m doing something good. And yeah, it was really crazy times, but I think you and I also, we had, we were, or we had and we still have the courage to say like let’s put the brakes on recording, because also we need to take care of ourselves. And we also we were also honest with each other because, as you said, like it was not only you. A lot of the time I think it was me more, but I think it was like the crazy busy schedule, or you’re overwhelmed here, or you cannot focus, and all of those things. And I think we took, we took a break and it’s okay to take a break and it’s okay to say like, okay, now I need to focus on doing 1, 2, 3 and I need to put this on the side to, to really to recharge, to come with the new ideas or topics or even have the energy for recording. And I think, I know we talked on Friday, but also for me, like coming from a culture, we are not really a big fan of saying burnout or that women should be. Or we say like, hey, I’m not feeling okay, I don’t want to do it. We say like, No, you need to do it now. You need to stand up. You need to be positive, and you will be positive. I need to continue.

 

I was searching, of course, you know how much I love the search, and I know 50 more women have more mental health burnout than men because usually we don’t ask for help because we want to do it by ourselves, which is, we want to prove that, of course, we are stronger. We are, we are doing it by ourselves. And also, one in five women in the United States experiences a mental health condition. Usually, they include depression, anxiety, and burnout; those numbers are a little bit crazy. But it’s also, and I think we, we are, we took care of ourselves because it was a little bit overwhelming otherwise, personal life, or with the work, or with everything else going on. And he said We, the Word camps this year were crazy. I don’t know about next year since WordCamp is in April, June, WordCamp Europe, and August WordCamp US. I don’t know what’s going to happen next year, but it is a little bit also over overwhelming. You know, the traveling, the preparing, the planning, and all of it goes. And also I really want my dreams to enjoy one Word Camp that I go attend the talks and have a catch up with you like, like besties, like having a coffee or like, and, and yeah, it, it was all a lot busier WordCamp. Yes, it was really overwhelming. And also, I think I didn’t take this, this is one of my first years, like in the summer vacation. I didn’t take it while, like I always organize myself, one week off to be focused. But yeah, sorry if I talk too much.

 

[00:08:28] Speaker A: No, I love it.

 

[00:08:29] Speaker B: Well, and also my pronunciation in English, because since this morning I’m speaking Dutch. So I think. Sorry.

 

[00:08:36] Speaker A: No, you’re perfect. You’re perfect.

 

I think also. So that one in five number is. That’s huge. That’s 20% in very many relationships. And of course, you know, gentlemen, we are not saying every man. Like, I always feel like I have to caveat that. But in so many relationships and so many families, women, and we’ve talked about this before, carry more of the burden for child raising and more of the burden for housekeeping than men traditionally have. And do I think that number is changing? I think that there are a lot more relationships that share things much more equally.

 

But I don’t, I know it’s not all right. And I know that. And in the relationships in my age bracket anyway and the friends that I know, that is not, that is not equal at this point. And so when women are working full time, taking care of children, and I don’t care how old the children are, whether they’re young adults or they’re infants, you still have an emotional burden, if not a physical burden, for your children.

 

My daughter’s 33, and I still think about her every day, wonder how she’s doing, and carry that emotion with me.

 

But also, like as a single woman, I am 100% responsible for everything in my home. I am 100% percent responsible for everything that happens with my car, and I care for my elderly mother, and I do all of these other things. And so yeah, it’s easy to see why burnout happens. And then, when you add to it in our industry that so many of us are freelancing, I have not had a vacation in over a year.

 

I have not taken time off in over a year.

 

And as a freelancer now, if I take time off, I don’t get paid.

 

[00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah.

 

[00:10:28] Speaker A: So to just to plan a vacation that costs money to do and then also not have any income during that week or two that you take vacation feels very burdensome.

 

Could I afford it? Yes.

 

But does that give? But am I in the Right? Mindset to say to myself, it’s okay to spend that money if you’re not also bringing money in. No, I’m not conditioned that way. Like, I literally have to train myself to do that.

 

And it’s funny because like I said to my daughter recently, I said, You don’t have a vacation over here. She goes, but you travel so much. I said, but none of it is a vacation. It’s all work.

 

When you are working at a. At a WordCamp, even if you have no responsibility other than maybe being a speaker or just attending, it is still business. You are still on, you are still working. It is not getting up whatever time you want, exploring a new city, you know, having lunch wherever you’d like. It’s still work. And so you’re in a work mindset. And so even though I’ve traveled a lot this year, even though I was laid off, I hustled so hard in those first couple of months that I was laid off because I didn’t want to lose relevance in the community. I didn’t want people to forget about me. I know everybody’s like, nobody could forget you. It’s not true. They do forget you. You do. When you’re not showing up consistently, you become a thing of the past, not a thing of the present, of the future. And so I really have been hustling this year and working really hard, and it all comes down to exhaustion. And whether you call that burnout, whether you call that something else, it’s just physically, emotionally, mentally exhausting. And to have a weekend like this last weekend, where I just got to do fun things, it helped. It fills my soul a little. And so, yeah, I definitely need to plan a vacation. I’m still saying that maybe I’ll take off between Christmas and New Year, which also never feels like a vacation because there’s so much happening at the end of the year. But. But to. To sleep until my body wakes me up and to have coffee in front of the television or, you know, go get a Starbucks and take my cameras out to the wildlife refuge, things like that.

 

I need to spend some time doing that.

 

[00:12:40] Speaker B: So, yeah, and also, yes, we, yeah, I understand men get depression, men get anxiety, but we’re talking about the numbers women more. Also,the pressure, as you said, is working the unpaid labor at home. Like, I also come from a culture where women are trained that even if you work outside, you still need to work inside. I’m blessed to have a great husband who loves to cook and wants to help me, but I feel guilty. And then, after I finish, I need to cook, or I need to do this, or I need to do the laundry or cleaning, or the groceries. And also, there’s this social aspect. You need to go to your place to see the family-in-law or that friend.

 

And also the pressure of the society that if you’re having kids, or if you don’t have kids or you need to lose weight, or you need to look better, why your hair is not looking good or are you sick if you don’t, also all of this piling, and sometimes can be heavier one day and then the other days.

 

And also, I totally understand freelancers now in the WordPress community. And I know a lot of people get it’s really pressure, and people love the community. They want to stay; they stay connected. But that also costs a lot of money to attend a simple flagship event going including a hotel. And I know this year has had a crazy budget. While we were in WordCamp Asia, we stayed in the hotel where everyone is staying or where the venue is in WordCamp Europe in Basel in Switzerland or WordCamp.

 

If you go only for the three Word camps with traveling, the budget is crazy. And sometimes people have to do the calculation paying rent, paying for food, and their medical health insurance, or to go to Word Camps because they start to make a fortune. And also the timing, because next year Word Campus is happening in August. Most people want to spend that small vacation with their family. You cannot leave and go to attend. And I really don’t know why they do it in August. You know, like just push it somewhere else. I know, and also it is summer vacation in in US a lot. The cost of travel is also going crazy. Also, the same for Europe. I’m not saying, but I think Word Camp Asia did the greatest thing this year. They removed World Camp Asia because of Ramadan and the Muslim holiday in April.

 

But I was hoping that WordCamp Europe was a little bit pushing it to another date, or also WordCamp. But, of course, that’s going to happen. But yeah, I don’t know it was.

 

How can I say it’s a weird cocktail? Let’s say it.

 

[00:15:31] Speaker A: Yes.

 

[00:15:32] Speaker B: Cause everyone has a little bit of anxiety, depression, burnout, and also the difficulties now to have a job in the WordPress ecosystem. And you still keep doing what you want to do. You want to contribute. Because I know a lot of companies drop a lot of contributions.

 

And also, so yeah, that also adds a lot of pressure on everyone’s shoulders. And especially if I know that getting released from a job, looking for Something, and also checking out because everyone thinks that life is not cheap. You know, your rent or your loan for the house, your medical care, your groceries, like everything. Those ones we need to work, to cover all of our life expenses. And we’re not going crazy. We are just normal human beings, want to have a decent living and, once in a while vacation. Once in a while.

 

[00:16:26] Speaker A: Yes, once in a while. At least once a year. That would be nice for sure. I think.

 

Yeah, you really, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Some of it is definitely a money issue. I would love to go to work Camp Asia next year. You and I just looked at the fairs. If I were.

 

I cannot fly 22 hours in coach.

 

The size of my body won’t allow it. My physical ailments will not allow it. So if I were to fly business class to Mumbai next year, it’s over $8,000 just for the airfare alone. And then I have to pay for the hotel and incidentals, and food. And you, not that you have to buy souvenirs, but if you’re flying halfway around the world, you have to buy some souvenirs. Right. So I’m going to guess that if I were to do that trip, I’m going to spend 11 or $12,000 to do it. US dollars. And that’s really cost-prohibitive as a single person who is freelancing. You know, to have to come up with that kind of money is a lot of money.

 

[00:17:32] Speaker B: So yeah, it’s a lot of money. And also at the same time, as you said, like not only you, but I would also not be happy to. To fly 22 hours in economy. I think it’s you will also arrive exhausted and your body. And we, we’re going, as you said, for work. We’re not going on vacation. I say two days. I will be fine. Now we need to wake up in the morning, next day we need to perform. We need to start all of this, like example, my work all of the time, responsible for Bluehost annuals and the planning and the booth, the stuff, everything running events, it’s. You need to be there earlier, and you need to be relaxed.

 

[00:18:13] Speaker A: And also because once camp starts and you’re talking to all of the people at your booth, you can’t be exhausted. So you have to arrive in enough time so that you’re on and you have the energy, and you have your personality that draws people in and wants to learn more. And you can’t do that if you arrive the day before. That’s just not, not possible because jet lag sucks.

 

[00:18:39] Speaker B: Me, I suffer from it. In WordCamp US usually I, usually I am not really like, like I’m well traveled. I consider myself. I was trained very well in my life. But WordCamp killed me this time. Like, I was so happy to arrive one day earlier. Yeah. And I remember when I went to bed, like usually, you take a little bit of time to sleep. Me know, 1, 2, 3, I was gone. You know, like it was. Yeah. And the next day and you can see you start to be like in the morning. Coffee doesn’t help. And your biological clock. It was a really crazy time in the Netherlands and in the U.S., but anyway, we survived it.

 

Yeah. I mean, I was like, I was. The other day I was having a crazy idea with myself, thinking if there’s WordCamp Africa or WordCamp South America. And I said, Oh no, no, I would love that. I would love that. But I was thinking, like, where it’s going to be happening. Traveling the time.

 

[00:19:35] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly.

 

Oh yeah. So, all of that to say, burnout is real. Whether we call it that or exhaustion or whatever word you want to apply to it, so it doesn’t set off the smoke alarms.

 

All of the flags are going up.

 

We need to take care of ourselves, and we need to watch out for each other. It is nobody’s responsibility to watch out for you.

 

It is a kindness that we can do for one another.

 

Having somebody like you and me to check in with one another and to be present for each other’s lives. But also even halfway around the world. Right. Or six hours apart. But also just to have somebody care enough to make sure that you’re okay.

 

[00:20:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And also it helps.

 

Yeah.

 

Take a break.

 

How many people love you, love you, and how much everyone cares.

 

You should be really responsible for taking a break and asking for help if you need help. And if you reach the level that you burn out, take all the time in the world to focus and get better, and don’t put a time frame on it. Some people get better fast. That is also something, sometimes if you want to take a break, if you want to take a break for a week, months, years, whatever, don’t put a deadline on it. This is one of the horrible things that exam depression, anxiety, and burnout when people start labeling it as time. And don’t feel guilty because most women feel guilty when we take a break because, like the work, people need me. This and this. Oh yeah. And yeah.

 

And everyone will be fine. This is my positive. This is my.

 

[00:21:21] Speaker A: I love it.

 

[00:21:22] Speaker B: This Is my. And I’m sorry, maybe three people think crazy, but. But also, I now have my mini Michella next to me. She gives me positive vibes. I don’t know.

 

This is. Thank you, Taco, because Taco brought it for me. And thank you also for the amazing socks. I’m gonna wear them tomorrow to the office. But this is my new positivity thing. I will look at her when I’m like, not. Not feeling like a good day. I’m. Take a couple of kisses and hugs, and I will keep.

 

[00:21:52] Speaker A: When I saw that it’s the ugliest little duck with. If you’re. If you’re listening and not watching, it is a little rubber duck. A mini rubber with purple hair. And when I saw it in the store here in Rochester, I was like, Samah needs a Michelle duck. So I carried it with me to Amsterdam. And then when I was there, I found the socks that are rubber ducky socks and was going to give them to you. You had Covid. You were very sick. But I did have dinner with Taco my last night there, and he was. He was kind enough to carry those back to you.

 

[00:22:21] Speaker B: So I was happy in the office. I don’t know. Someone asked me something, and I don’t want to reply. I was doing this, you know, I guess, Michelle. Michelle’s coming for you. Michelle’s coming for you.

 

[00:22:31] Speaker A: One of these days, you’re gonna be like, enough with the ducks, Michelle. I don’t need any more ducks. But I still have so much fun giving them to you.

 

[00:22:37] Speaker B: Come on. Like this one.

 

[00:22:39] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, the Elvis duck. Do you have the? Do you have the Elvis Decker? Is he at work?

 

[00:22:43] Speaker B: Elvis1 is protecting my desk at the office. Okay.

 

And also this one, the. This one.

 

[00:22:49] Speaker A: Oh, yes.

 

[00:22:50] Speaker B: And the gold one is at the office.

 

[00:22:52] Speaker A: There you go.

 

[00:22:52] Speaker B: I am normal.

 

I love just a yellow rubber duck. I’m obsessed with them. It’s uncurable.

 

[00:22:59] Speaker A: Like, I tried. You still have this, too, right?

 

[00:23:01] Speaker B: I’ll put it here at the office. Also me, I. Oh, my God. There was a cute keyboard. And with it. And my colleague in the office said, if you brought it, we’re gonna quit.

 

[00:23:13] Speaker A: I’ve seen that. The keyboard, every time you press any key, because it has a duck on it, it quacks at you. Yeah, yeah, I. I thought about getting that for you, but it was very expensive.

 

[00:23:23] Speaker B: No, but also, it’s annoying.

 

[00:23:24] Speaker A: I don’t know. You colleagues would kill you.

 

They’d be like, take that one home, Samah. Anyway, but it’s also, you know, just to kind of go back to our main point here. Little things like that can absolutely lift your spirits. Right. Like socks with ducks on them or a stupid little duck with purple hair like Michelle.

 

I love it. Yeah.

 

[00:23:46] Speaker B: And also one last thing is, like, always speak up about it. You know, sometimes it’s good, like I am tired. I’m just slowing down and being honest about it. And, I think people around you, work also, especially work, should be very supportive for you to understand and encourage you to take a bit things slower to go back where you were before.

 

[00:24:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I do want to just end this by saying if you, as whoever you are listening to this right now, if you ever have thoughts of self-harm or suicidal ideologies or thoughts of suicide, please, please, please seek help from a trusted person to get you to a doctor. Talk to somebody who can help you with this. You deserve to be here, and we need you in this world. So please, please, please seek the help that you need. I want to make sure that we say that as well because burnout and emotional stress can sometimes lead to very, very dark thoughts. And we don’t want to have that happen to anybody in our circle. For sure. Yeah.

 

We don’t know what we’re going to talk about next week, but we will be back next week. We will have topics.

 

[00:25:03] Speaker B: Yes, definitely. Okay. Take care, everyone. We love everyone.

 

[00:25:08] Speaker A: Yes. Bye. Bye.

 

If you’re interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode or just want to say Hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com See you next week.