Note: Today’s episode centered on this article from Forbes. We recommend it! Employers, Here Are 4 Ways You Can Advocate For Your Underrepresented Employees

Michelle: [00:00:00] Good morning Allie! 

[00:00:04] Allie: [00:00:04] Hi Michelle. Good morning. How are you? 

[00:00:07] Michelle: [00:00:07] I’m good. How are you? 

[00:00:09] Allie: [00:00:09] Good. You’re back in the Give office. I see, last time I talked to you, you were home. 

[00:00:15] Michelle: [00:00:15] Last time you talked to me I was lazy and I hadn’t got up in time to come to the office. And so I was working from home that morning. 

[00:00:23]Allie: [00:00:23] Yes. Cool. Well, it’s wonderful to see you.

[00:00:28] Um, and I’m so excited because you found this really cool blog post, um, to kind of use, to frame some of our conversation today. And there were so many good. Like, oh, I wish I’d wrote this post myself. Like there’s so many good points in it. It touches on so many important concepts. And so I thought it would be really cool if we use this kind of as a skeleton for our conversation today and touch on these, uh, the points that this article makes, um, I have it up in front of me in a document.

[00:00:57] Cause I like, I like made all sorts of comments and notes all over it, but the title of the post is “Employers here are four ways you can advocate for your underrepresented employees.” um, so if you are listening and you employ even one person there’s information in this article for you, um, And I would definitely say that this article is really helpful for those people who maybe don’t have diverse teams or have a couple of underrepresented people in their team.

[00:01:28] And they would like to grow that. Um, because one of the things I kept coming back to in this article was the, the concept of, if you, if you focus on these ideas, you will attract the kind of people you want to bring in. Right. We have a huge sort of whisper network in WordPress, but in professional communities as a whole, it’s like, if you are looking at applying at a company and you know someone who works there, you’re going to ask them about that place.

[00:01:59] And you want your current employees to tell other people, yes, this is a super, it may not be a diverse team right now, but it’s incredibly inclusive. It’s incredibly welcoming. I feel very comfortable here. And I think that you will too. Um, because the, the opposite of that is them saying, yeah. I would look somewhere else.

[00:02:22] You know, we care about company culture so much, and you want your current employees, um, to advocate for you, right. And that starts by advocating for them. So those are, those are the two main ideas I got from this is like, if you’re looking to hire people, or if you already have people under your team, there are some really important.

[00:02:43] Ideas in here for you. What do you think, Michelle? What did you get? Like, what was your kind of big idea from this post? 

[00:02:48] Michelle: [00:02:48] Yeah, so I absolutely agree with you. And as you were saying that I had this mental image of there’s a reason we don’t have unicorns today. Noah did not provide the right environment for unicorns to get on the boat.

[00:03:01] And so if you’re not providing the right environment for our unicorns to be in your organization, you don’t get unicorns. Right. So. I mean, it’s pretty much that in a nutshell, like if you aren’t providing the right culture in your organization for representation and diversity, then you’re not going to have representation and diversity in your company.

[00:03:25] Allie: [00:03:25] Absolutely. And one of the first ways that the article talks about that is creating community through mentorship. So offering a support system where people feel safe, they feel comfortable like having conversations with other people who, um, fall into the same sorts of underrepresented community groups that, that they do.

[00:03:45] Um, And that can be sort of a challenge, especially if you are one of those companies. And I think we’ve all seen those companies where they’re like, oh yeah, we have a super diverse team. And when you go to their about page, all the leadership are straight white males, and then you have like two white women in support at, or, or, you know, in some other position that’s kind of at the bar listed at the bottom of the page where it’s like, okay, well, How much mentorship can those two people give each other, right.

[00:04:16] Like one of my biggest unofficial mentors is Josepha Hayden who is in one of the top positions in the WordPress ecosystem because she is somebody that I can look up to and I can learn from. Right. And so it’s really important. Like the main takeaway I got from that section is like hiring diverse people in positions of leadership is going to help to create that community of mentorship, rather than just trying to fill holes with diverse faces.

[00:04:45] Um, It’s not gonna work out the same. What do you, what do you think? How do you feel? 

[00:04:51] Michelle: [00:04:51] I agree a hundred percent. I don’t know if you remember when Marieke van de Racht  took the position of CEO over at Yoast. One of the first things she did was create a culture where women could thrive because she promoted women.

[00:05:03] She created like, uh, like an organization within the organization for women to mentor each other, to learn from each other, to have frank and open conversations and closed to everybody else. But she asked publicly, what can I do to make sure that women can thrive within Yoast? And I thought, well, that is brilliant.

[00:05:24] I’d never seen anybody do that before, especially in technology. 

[00:05:28] Allie: [00:05:28] Yeah, that is a fantastic example and kudos to her for doing that because, and that, that can lead to sort of the next part of the post, which is like engaging in difficult conversations or having those conversations to say like, where, where are we falling short currently?

[00:05:43] What can we do to improve, like help us to identify our blind spots? Um, and I think that it’s really important. Like she I’m assuming maybe on Twitter or somewhere else, like put out a public uh, uh, request for that, but like within the company, it’s also really important to have, um, I wrote in my little notes, like clear in public guidelines for how and where and why to have these sorts of conversations.

[00:06:14] Um, There’s like nothing worse than working somewhere and feeling like you have something to bring up that might be an uncomfortable conversation or something kind of sensitive and feeling like, well, I don’t, I don’t know who to talk to. I don’t know where to go. I don’t know the right etiquette for this.

[00:06:33] And if I do it wrong, it might cost me my job or my reputation or, you know, an opportunity or something like that. And so I think. Having a very, having everyone understand that if you have an issue or something to bring up, here’s where to go. Here’s how to do it. And you will not be, this is a no judgment zone, right?

[00:06:56] Like this is your place to rant. And to let that out and you will not be judged for that. Um, here’s the front of that. 

[00:07:06] Michelle: [00:07:06] So in that conversation, my, what, I don’t think the article covered enough or at all, is really was the person who’s receiving the information has to not only be open to receive any information, but number one has to listen to hear, right?

[00:07:25] Not just listen to respond and also not get defensive. And not say, but we do this, or we tried that once. But because when somebody is coming to you to say that something is not right in your organization, number one, that is a difficult thing for them to come forward and say, right? Because like you said, it can either cause a very uncomfortable working situation.

[00:07:48] They fear for their jobs. They fear for the relationship with, uh, with the person that they’re talking to much less all of the upper management. Right. So there’s, they’re absolutely making themselves vulnerable. To be able to start that conversation with you. And so for you to do anything, but listen to hear and say, I really appreciate that.

[00:08:07] And, and either this is what we can do to start moving forward, or I need to process this. Can we revisit this next week so that I have some more information to share with you back? Those are really the only acceptable responses. 

[00:08:21] Allie: [00:08:21] Yeah. A hundred percent agree, like. That, that instinct to be defensive or to, to push blame or something like that.

[00:08:31] Never helpful, never helpful at all. Um, and I think being really specific about who has that because a lot of companies have like an HR person, right. Where it’s like, okay, if something is wrong, you go to HR. I think that that can be really helpful. But I think that particularly in our community, most of the WordPress businesses.

[00:08:52] Um, in, in this environment are fairly small, right? We’re not made up of gigantic global fortune 500, you know, Amazon level companies where a bunch of people in an office like you are right now, handful of people working hard to make something happen. And I think that it’s, I know that I’ve been in positions before where it’s been like, well, you just go to HR and it’s like, well, maybe the person in HR, um, is not somebody I feel comfortable talking to, maybe the person in HR is the problem.

[00:09:29] Maybe, you know, any number of things. Um, so I think it’s, it’s really important to be mindful of the structure of your company, the size of your company. Um, And, and maybe make sure that there isn’t just one option for somebody to take advantage of in order to have that conversation. But it’s like, okay, we have this HR person, but if that is not an option for you right now, I as your team leader or your manager or whatever, I’m also available to have that conversation with you.

[00:10:00] Um, giving people options and choices and flexibility is super important. 

[00:10:06] Michelle: [00:10:06] You’re right. Because bigger companies have like what we call a whistleblower hotline, right? Like there’s a place where you can go and you can report whatever’s wrong without backlash. You can do it anonymously. You could do it, but within smaller companies there isn’t that opportunity.

[00:10:21] Yeah. Especially if you’re the only woman in a company and somebody hears that there’s issues for women in this company, guess who made the report, right? 

[00:10:30] Allie: [00:10:30] That’s exactly right. I can be, oh, I can be so uncomfortable. Um, but I think that is like, I remember noticing this a while back where whenever I hear about whenever I meet HR professionals or see them on Twitter or something like that, they’re always women.

[00:10:46] And I always thought that that was weird. But it makes sense when I, when I think about it, um, because who’s more likely out of men or women to have HR issues, unfortunately, women. Um, so yeah, but that kind of sucks. Would you repeat that, but yeah, go to your HR person or. Or have another option. Um, what else, what else?

[00:11:09] So that kind of nicely leads into the next section of the post, which is about like, uh, policies and things like that for workers of all backgrounds. So your, you know, your whistleblower policy, your, I need help policy should be clear and shared from the very beginning. Like I love when I go to a company’s website and they have policy, like, you know, maybe not deep into the weeds, but they have policies like this published on their about page or on their careers page to say, like, we care about handling these sorts of issues.

[00:11:43] We care about having these sorts of conversations and here’s how we do it like that. To me as an underrepresented person, that would make me feel more comfortable about applying, because I know that I’m coming into a position where I’m already supported. Have you had experiences like that? 

[00:11:58] Michelle: [00:11:58] I guess I should. I haven’t really looked at websites in that way. One thing I do notice is if they’ve got that equal opportunity employer kind of thing in the footer and at least when I see that it isn’t necessarily saying that they really are. That’s that’s their public persona, whether or not that’s what they put into practice is not necessarily reality, but at least they’ve had the forethought to, to include that kind of information.

[00:12:25] So perhaps they’re headed in the right direction, but I never just fully believe without verifying. 

[00:12:31] Allie: [00:12:31] Yeah. That’s a really, really good point as well. Um, yeah. I li I like seeing those things because yeah. Even if they don’t fully honor it. Um, on a day-to-day basis, they are, they’ve published it publicly and they’re willing to be held accountable, right?

[00:12:44] Like somebody can point at that and say, well, you’ve posted here for everyone to see, like, this is what your policies are. So, you know, um, that’s super important. Um, the, the post-doc. Go ahead. 

[00:13:00] Michelle: [00:13:00] It’s not, it’s not likely that in, uh, in small organizations, like the ones we’re talking about that, you know, anybody’s going to go to the ACLU and lodge a complaint and it’s going to suddenly be this lawsuit against little tiny, you know, technology company kind of thing, but it’s, but you still need to have the mindset that that’s the kind of thing that could happen so that you are preparing yourself to not put yourself in that position.

[00:13:23] Right. So if you’re creating the right processes, you’re creating the right policies, you’re creating the right environment, right. It would be crossed somebody’s mind to go to the ACLU because they’re having their needs met or at the very least you’re trying, and you’re open to conversations about making things better.

[00:13:40] Allie: [00:13:40] Yeah. And companies grow, right. Like decent examples, not bring out the best example is like that whole Basecamp thing that just went down like Basecamp is right, was a small company, right. It wasn’t this giant, I think there was between 20 and 30 people working there. Maybe mid-sized, but you know, there’s lots of WordPress companies that are that size.

[00:14:02] Um, but they were hugely popular uh, software and I’m sure that they were, they were at a point at some point in the past where they were like, oh, we’re small. We don’t need to have all this blah, blah, blah, blah. But it’s, I feel like it’s, it’s a good idea if you’re thinking like, okay, well we’re small now, but our goals are to become that big company in the future.

[00:14:22] Right. Having all of these things set from the very beginning and building on that as a foundation. Way smarter than having to double back in the future and, you know, cover your butt when things go wrong, much better idea to have that already set up. Um, and I, I really like a lot of the examples that this post use as far as having, you know, policies in place for underrepresented people and being flexible about those policies, um, like, you know, they’re talking about.

[00:14:54] Um, flexibility, for for single parents, um, and things like that. And it just made me think of the whole, um, kind of, I’m not gonna say argument, but debate, maybe that people are having right now about, uh, remote working and whether when the pandemic is over, should people be going back to the office or should remote still be an option?

[00:15:15] And I’ve heard a lot of people describe the anti- remote, working side of that argument as abelist and sexist and classist. And I think that it’s true, right? Like there are a lot of underrepresented people who benefit wildly from being able to have the flexibility of those policies of how they work um, and when you are privileged, You may be, don’t see the difference so much between working at home and working in the office.

[00:15:52] Um, how I know that Give has very pretty fantastic policies about flexibility of working and I mean, give has always been remote even before the pandemic. Can you talk a little bit to like your experiences? I feel like I’m interviewing you. Can you talk about that to like your experiences of how having flexible policies has benefited?

[00:16:18] You as an underrepresented person, 

[00:16:21] Michelle: [00:16:21] I can, I can especially speak to some of what, how it’s benefited my teammates as well. Right? So I’ve got a position of leadership within the company. And so I have a position of privilege in the company. So if I, you know, I’m salaried, so if I need to take a doctor’s appointment, I’m not asking for time off to do that.

[00:16:36] I’m just flexing and, and doing whatever I need to, but I have team members that I’m responsible for, who are hourly employees and who do have to report on a time clock and everything like that. And especially now that we’re under a parent company that requires us to actually log in and do time cards and things like that.

[00:16:53] Yeah. So, um, you know, Amanda, and I know she won’t mind if I pick on her for a bit. Um, she is one of the first, well, she’s the first woman in the company to have a baby while she worked for the company. Right. And so maybe by the way, he is so cute. He started planking. I’ll send you a picture later. He’s like, he’s not even two years old he’s a year and a half old, but he’s planking on things.

[00:17:18] Allie: [00:17:18] Honey. 

[00:17:18] Michelle: [00:17:18] I don’t know why, how he learned that he likes the balance, whatever a little side note. Anyway, uh, so we had to figure out as a company, what does that mean as a remote company? Right? Whose headquartered in California, but still has to abide by New York state laws and regulations when it comes to maternity leaves.

[00:17:38] Yeah, day care and all of that. And so we do have an office here and my team reports to the office here, but I allow them one day a week to work from home and for Amanda, because of what New York state allowed within the first year, she was able to take four months off with Ronan and be home for that whole time.

[00:18:01] And then the rest of her time, she was able to take every Friday off for another, almost for a full year. And that gave her help with flex, you know, flexibility with working with childcare. And it gave her flexibility with having time off to recover, because guess what folks, just because you take four months after having a baby, your body still hasn’t recovered from all of that.

[00:18:23] Yeah. If you’re a nursing mom though, that that adds layers of complexity. And so for her to be able to come in a little bit later, work from home in the mornings, wait till the nanny gets there, come into work, you know, be able to have that kind of flexibility. And as a parent, if something happens, they have an older child they’re responsible for too from the family, the school calls he’s got, you know, a dentist appointment.

[00:18:47] She has flexibility here. To be able to go and do those things, take care of her family and still work her 40 hours. It doesn’t have to be, you know, from eight to five because we have the ability to flex that way. And so I think having policies in place to be able to accommodate for those things super important.

[00:19:05] Guess what? She’s one of the hardest workers on this team. She’s loyal to this team. She’s loyal to me. She’s loyal to the company. She’s loyal to WordPress. I mean, like she has a career and is able to do things with her family because WordPress provides that through now Liquid Web and Give, but also because we know what it means to be a family and to have family and to allow the flexibility for her to be able to do that.

[00:19:32] Yeah, her skillset is, amazing. You know, her people skills when you know her she’s she’s all out. amazing, so like, why would I want to punish somebody who can contribute the way that she contributes by saying, I’m sorry, you can’t take time off for that doctor’s appointment. I mean, like, it just doesn’t make sense.

[00:19:47] Allie: [00:19:47] No, absolutely not. And yeah, like the idea of tailoring policies to people rather than the other way around is so important because, you know, say, um, another, another woman on the team or, uh, um, man who has a wife who has a baby, any other person on the team goes through that same experience? What worked for Amanda may not work exactly for them.

[00:20:11] They might need some other, they might have some other circumstance. They might be a single parent. They might have a child who’s sick, any number of things. And so I think it’s like, it’s so important to say, okay, well here’s what we can do. And here’s what you need. So let’s find that good compromise.

[00:20:28] Middle ground area. Like I’ve spoken to so many people who work in like hyper corporate America, who it’s like, okay, well, this is the, this is the policy, right? This is what you get, take it or leave it. And it’s like, If I could find another place that does tailor to me, I would I not take that instead, you know?

[00:20:49] So yeah. Tailoring policies to people rather than the other way around, I think is super duper important. Especially in COVID times right now, right. Where we need to give people a little bit of extra leeway. Um, I had to take, I mean, I’m, I’m freelancing right now, so I have a little bit of extra flexibility, but for a huge chunk of last week, I couldn’t do anything because my mom is sick and I needed to drive her back and forth to the doctors and do stuff around the house with her and go grocery shopping for her and like all of these other things.

[00:21:22] And I’m, I’m essentially her, her primary caretaker when she needs a caretaker. And I was, I remember thinking last week, like, man, This would really suck if I was, you know, full-time employed and I needed to take three days out of the week to do all of this stuff. And I was losing all of this this time and then would have to make it up on the weekend or wake it up at night and then not have time to sleep or, you know, to do things I need to do for myself.

[00:21:49] And, and, you know, not to go off on a whole tangent there, but it’s like the idea that underrepresented people have needs and issues that, when do you have the sorts of privileges that we’re talking about? You might not consider those things. Those things might not apply to you. Um, and so if you’re building policies at your company that are suited for you, you’re not advocating for other people.

[00:22:22] Exactly. I feel like I’m stating the obvious here, but I feel like some people 

[00:22:28] Michelle: [00:22:28] when I was a young single mom, so Lydia was about three, I think, I worked for a university, worked for college in a college setting in the registrar’s office. And I was driving an hour every day back and forth. So two hours a day, I was spending on the road just to get to childcare because I had free childcare, but it was half an hour away from where I worked and. I worked right near home. So I would drive half hour, drop her off, drive that far back. So two hours a day, then in the car. So I approached my bosses who then went to HR on my behalf to say, could I do four, 10 hour days instead of five eight hour days and they approved it.

[00:23:08] So I had Monday off I had a three-day weekend every weekend. Number one, it cuts out on the time I had to travel back and forth. Number two, it gave me more time to be with my child who needed a parent, not just grandparents and everybody else. And so that was just. You know, phenomenal that they were willing to work with me.

[00:23:27] I got all my work done. I was a stellar employee, you know, that kind of thing, but that they were willing to say, yeah, we want to, we want to make it possible for you to continue to work here and not be running yourself ragged. Right? 

[00:23:39] Allie: [00:23:39] Yeah. My mom had similar experiences. She was a single mom raising me and I remember pretty much everywhere my mom worked when I was a kid. Um, she had a couple of different jobs, but they were always so flexible about letting her, you know, leave work a little early to pick me up from school and then bring me to work with her. So I spent a lot of time either, uh, underneath my mom’s desk, because it was where I was least in the way.

[00:24:07] And I would have books and games that, you know, I wasn’t some little urchin, you know, in the dirt under there, I was doing things. Um, I know that as I said, I was like, that sounds so terrible. I’m hanging out under my mom’s desk. Because she knew where I was and I was close by her, or there was a place where she worked at, had a little break room in the back and it had a little TV.

[00:24:31] So she would get me little VHS videos to watch. And I had my Barbies and I would hang out in the back. Um, and then as I got older, various places, she worked, um, put me to work. Like they would give me little tasks to do sometimes, like I would make copies or, you know, run papers up and down and say, yeah, but I thought it was so fun and I was being helpful, you know?

[00:24:53] And I, now that I’m an adult and I think back to, um, I think back on that and like, that was so cool of my mom’s employers to be like, Yeah. You know, you’re, you’re a great employee. You’re a great worker. Your kid’s cool. Cause I was cool. Um, and you know, they, they allowed her to be flexible with taking care of me.

[00:25:16] Um, even so far as to have me in the office, it’s just hanging out and doing stuff. As long as I behaved myself, you know, it was, it was fine. And I can’t imagine the stress that it would have put on my mom to have to, to have to find an alternative to that of not being able to pick me up from school, um, and, and have to find somewhere else to put me while she was still working like that wouldn’t have been so difficult and inexpensive and all of those other things.

[00:25:47] Um, and I, I, we both think back on those times with a lot of fondness, you know, and so it is, it definitely pays off, right. To be flexible for people to give people what they need and to advocate for them. Um, I don’t want to go on too much longer. We like to keep these kind of short ish, but there was one other point in the post that I really wanted to touch on that I think is really important for now.

[00:26:15] Um, you know, the post talks about other policies employees should consider, uh, keeping in mind domestic violence victims, keeping in mind microaggressions and biases, zero tolerance policies. And it made me think about the current social state social and political state of our country here in the United States, we have Black Lives Matter protests still happening.

[00:26:40] We have this huge surge of violence against Asian American people in this country. And I remember last year when the Black Lives Matter protests were at their highest, I needed to take a few days. I think it was right after the Capitol riot. I just felt like I needed to take a few days to process my fear and my sadness and my frustration, because I couldn’t work.

[00:27:10] Like I couldn’t not think about all of these things. Um, and I was in a position where I was able to do that. Um, and I think that it’s important for employers to, to not only be aware of these things that are happening, but to check in with people on their teams and ask how they are, ask how they’re handling things, ask if they need time, figure out what you can do as an employer to support these really terrible things that are happening right now, because they affect people sometimes more than you realize.

[00:27:48] Um, like a friend of a friend, his mother they’re Asian-American, his mother worked in a nail salon. And she was spit on by a customer. And a lot of times people don’t want to talk about this, cause they’re not going to sit on Twitter and post about it or write a huge blog post about it. Something that they’re dealing with internally and close to the heart.

[00:28:12] And we have to be compassionate about those sorts of things. And I think that it’s, it’s such a strong way to advocate for your employees too. To educate yourself about what’s going on and then reach out to them to see what you can do for them. 

[00:28:28] Michelle: [00:28:28] Absolutely. I did want to talk on the last point just a little bit before we get off, because I think the training aspect is super important.

[00:28:36] Yes. And the idea of making sure that people are trained where my, you know, I, we talked about before my daughter is African-American too. And, um, And she’s, she can say that cause she did her DNA and she knows that she’s from the ivory coast of Africa. Anyway. Um, she is, uh, the president of the African-American Resource Group for M and T Bank for Western New York.

[00:29:01] And the fact that an organization like a bank, which is this big, huge organization, especially in New York and California, has an African American resource group. They do four or more trainings a year where they come up with topics. Um, and they invited me to come in and talk about dealing with emotions in the workplace.

[00:29:20] And I walked into that room. There were a hundred people in that room. Wow. Listening to this white girl talking about handling emotions in the workplace. Um, and it was the conversation that happened in that room. The paying attention that happened to that room, it was phenomenal. And I got to thinking like, how could you scale that down to a small organization?

[00:29:42] And then I thought, you know, you don’t really have to worry about doing something in house. You just have to make it available to people to be able to participate in things that are outside of your organization for those kinds of trainings. If you facilitate it, you have to maybe sponsor it. There might be money involved, but do what you need to, to make sure that everybody in your company is equipped to handle whatever comes their way.

[00:30:05] Allie: [00:30:05] Yeah. That’s super important. Um, one thing that came to my mind in that section as well, Is these, these conversations, these trainings, whatever resources you provide should be maybe not required, but encouraged and offered to everyone on the team. Not just the people who are, uh, underrepresented, not just the minorities.

[00:30:32] Um, but everyone, because you also don’t know like what other people are going through. So a person that you might look at as a. Heterosexual white male, you might think, okay, well they have all this privilege and blah, blah, blah. They might be LGBTQ. They might be on the autism spectrum. They might, you know, all of these other things that they might feel I could use some advocacy, right.

[00:30:57] I need help sharing my voice and standing up for myself. I need help negotiating my salary. 

[00:31:04] Michelle: [00:31:04] You don’t know what the other thing it does though. And even if that person absolutely sits in a position of privilege and they aren’t underrepresented in any way, it still teaches them about allyship. Right? So, um, you know, yes, my daughter is an African-American woman.

[00:31:19] I am an ally. I still have so much to learn about what it means to be an ally. And those trainings helped me too. 

[00:31:26] Allie: [00:31:26] Absolutely really good points. Oh man. Yeah, this is such a good post. I’m so glad you found it. It had so much, and it’s short. Like it’s only a couple pages. Like I put it in Google docs and it’s only three pages, but it has so much good information in it.

[00:31:40] So we will link the, I mean, it’s linked on our Twitter, but I’ll also link it in the YouTube video description and on our transcript on our website as well. So, um, I recommend that everyone give this a read if this content was that all useful for you, um, who published it was a Forbes. Yeah. It was a Forbes article that you found.

[00:32:04] Michelle: [00:32:04] And also, you know, I don’t think we say this enough, but we are actually sitting here as resources too. So you can always reach out to Underrepresented in Tech. We do, um, honor our time by, you know, being consultants and charging for our services. But if your company is sitting in a position where you think you need some, um, guidance hit up our website, underrepresentedintech.com .

[00:32:24] You can find people there. We talk about that all the time, but you can also find us there and we’re happy to do some consulting with you if you need it. 

[00:32:32] Absolutely. One hundred percent . Alrighty, thank you for your time, Michelle. I always love talking to you on Thursdays. 

[00:32:38] Allie: [00:32:38] Absolutely. Me too. I always say, I don’t know what next week is going to bring, but we’ll find something fun to talk about.

[00:32:42] Yes, ma’am. Alrighty. Talk to you later. Bye.